JulieB Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 I know what bloody the gold standard was you fool. And what does it say about someone's argument when they have to resort to insults? If you bothered to get your head out of the sand there are an awful lot of commentators saying that we have to get back to an asset backed currency as I stated earlier. The reason why the US left the Gold standard for the dollar was because they were basically bankrupt. An economy based on debt is simply unsustainable as I've said before. Which kind of answers your last point! IF indeed exotic elements do indeed have medicinal, physical and nano technological uses that up till recently science didn't know about THEN Gold, Palladium, Platignum etc will become even MORE valuable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brumerican Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Yet again Julie cherry picks which areas of science to believe in . The hypocrisy is astounding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted February 17, 2012 VT Supporter Share Posted February 17, 2012 I think you'll find I don't have my head in any sand - rarely comment on this thread because I'm not an economist, amateur or otherwise, and I frankly don't know if the gold standard is worth a return or not (I suspect not). Nor has economics ever lit my fire, unlike other, political, debates. Anywho, economics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulieB Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 I think you'll find most of my posts in this thread have been very much about economics and the shadow banking system which has spiralled way out of control and is putting our whole global economic system at risk. And I am certainly not going to lower myself to debating with the likes of Brumerican and Chindie over their childish insults. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted February 17, 2012 VT Supporter Share Posted February 17, 2012 And I'm glad you won't because I had no intention to - nor do I intend to ever again. Colours have been revealed before now. My comment was solely intended to comically steer things back to what the topics actually about, instead of mumbo jumbo that it was on a collision course with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brumerican Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 And I am certainly not going to lower myself to debating with the likes of Brumerican and Chindie over their childish insults. The very notion that entering into a debate with "the likes" of Chindie and I would be deemed as " lowering yourself " is insulting in itself . It's a tad hypocritical , but then again hypocrisy is your speciality . I'll not reply in this thread again as it's about ergonomics or something , but if you'd like to start a thread about ancient civilizations and their amazing alchemy based technology then I'll gladly continue . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted February 17, 2012 Moderator Share Posted February 17, 2012 Villans - If you're determined to carry on in this fashion, We'd be obliged if you could do so elsewhere than on this forum. Please re-acquaint yourselves with the posting guidelines. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulieB Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Back OT. Excellent guest article from Zerohedge.com today When Debt Is More Important Than People, The System Is Evil Submitted by Charles Hugh Smith from Of Two Minds The Empire of Debt has only one end-point: a death spiral. It is evil and must be dismantled. Ethics has no place in the Empire of Debt. The financialized Status Quo is careful to limit the language used to describe the situation in Greece to the subtexts of "obligations" and "avoiding chaos." The reality being masked is that debt is now more important than people. The suffering of the people of Greece is presented as a footnote to the financial play being staged; when the suffering is noted, it is presented with a peculiar set of unspoken subtexts: 1. Looky-loo detachment of the "gosh, look at that wrecked car, are there any bodies?" sort. People slow down to look at car crashes, and they revel in videos of riots with the same detached fascination with mayhem that doesn't involve them. Tsk tsk, how awful, etc. 2. They're reaping what they sowed, "they made their bed, now they have to sleep in it," i.e. the suffering of Greek non-Elites is the richly deserved consequences of their government overborrowing. This begs further investigation. In the normal course of affairs in corrupt kleptocracies, various Elites siphon off most of the swag and the commoners get just enough shreds to buy their complicity. In other words, it may well be that the entire populace of Greece benefitted handsomely from the massive State borrowing, but it also may well be that the private-sector Greeks received little of the swag. In this case, they don't "deserve" to be forced into debt-serfdom by their Euroland overlords. The ethics of debt, at least in the officially sanctioned media, boils down to: nobody made them borrow all those euros, and so their suffering is just desserts. What's lost in this subtext is the responsibility of the lender. Yes, nobody forced Greece to borrow 200 billion euros (or whatever the true total may be), but then nobody forced the lenders to extend the credit in the first place. Consider an individual who is a visibly poor credit risk. He would like to borrow money to blow on consumption and then stiff the lender, but since he cannot create credit, he has to live within his means. Now a lender comes along who can create credit out of thin air (via fractional reserve banking) and offers this poor credit risk $100,000 in collateral-free debt at low rates of interest. Who is responsible for the creation and extension of credit? The borrower or the lender? Answer: the lender. In other words, if the lender is foolish enough to extend huge quantities of credit to a poor credit risk, then it's the lender who should suffer the losses when the borrower defaults. This is the basis of bankruptcy laws--or used to be the basis. When an over-extended borrower defaults, the debt is cleared, the lender takes the loss/writedown, and the borrower loses whatever collateral was pledged. He is left with the basics to carry on: his auto, clothing, his job, and so on. His credit rating is impaired, and it is now his responsibility to earn back a credible credit rating. The debt is discharged and the borrower must live within his means without relying on credit. But he is also free of the burdens of servicing the debt. If the lender is forced into insolvency due to the losses, then so be it: lenders that cannot differentiate between good and bad credit risks should go under and disappear: that's what happens in a competitive, transparent capitalist economy. Fools who create credit and extend it to poor credit risks must be eliminated from the system as quickly as possible lest they destroy more capital in the future. The potential for loss and actually bearing the consequences from irresponsible extensions of credit was unacceptable to the banking cartel, so they rewrote the laws. Now student loans in America cannot be discharged in bankruptcy court; they are permanent and must be carried and serviced until death. This is the acme of debt-serfdom. The global banking cartel has declared Greece's debts to be permanent and its people debt-serfs. More precisely, some privately held debt will be written down, but certainly not all of it, and the debt owed to the European Central Bank cannot be written down a single euro: Greece must pay the interest on the full debt, whatever the costs to its people. We might ask why the fully-financialized Status Quo of financial and political Elites so carefully insures no shadow of ethics passes over the Greek debt crisis: If they did, it would become obvious that when debt becomes more important than people, the system is evil and should be dismantled. Yes, evil, as in evil empire: the Empire of Debt that now dominates the global economy is intrinsically evil and cannot be salvaged; the only way to rid the planet of its parasitic, pervasive evil is to dismantle it, all of it, everywhere. Europe is a good place to start. The only way to dismantle the evil Empire of Debt is to stop obeying its commands: Greece should not pay a single euro on any of its debts, starting with debt owed to the Evil Empire of Debt's favorite tool, the Troika of the EU (European Union), the ECB and the IMF. We are constantly told default and exit from the debtors' prison of the euro would lead to chaos. Unfortunately for the Evil Empire of Debt and its Eurozone army of lackeys, toadies and apparatchiks, this claim is demonstrably false. Thanks to Pater Tenebrarum of the always excellent Acting Man financial blog, we have access to a 53-page report from Variant Perception that completely dismantles the fear-mongering claims of Apocalypse for the Greeks should their government default on its debts. A Primer on the Euro Breakup: Default, Exit and Devaluation as the Optimal Solution. The only way forward is default and exit from the debtors' prison of the euro. Once the debt has been renounced, Greece will have to live within its means, i.e. the goods and services produced by their economy. I think a critically important point has been lost in all the fear-mongering: the value of the goods and services produced by an economy remain the same whether they are valued in euros, gold, dollars, bat guano or any other open-market measure of value. What will impoverish Greece is paying interest on the mountain of debt. If we value total Greek output of goods and services at 100 quatloos, and this economic activity generates a surplus of 10 quatloos, the Greek people can decide to consume that 10 quatloos, invest it or some mix of the two. If they have to pay 10 quatloos in interest, then there is no capital left to invest in productive assets. As the existing productive assets degrade, wear out and become obsolete, then the goods and services produced will decline, along with the surplus generated. This sets up a positive feedback loop, i.e. a death spiral: as production of value declines, so too does the surplus available to invest in productive assets. This is why the only way forward is default and exit from the debtors' prison of the euro. The only way forward is to value people more than debt, and to dismantle the evil Empire of Debt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VILLAFC2000 Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Hi Folks, I currently don't know a lot of people who have been made redundant. I am not saying that I know the whole of the UK, I know a few people here and there not loads. I know quite a few people in the building trade and they seem to be stacked for work. Plus the few people who I know who have been made redundant have found jobs straight away. A few who I know in the factory manufacturing who export to the EU who still have stacks of work and demand has increased. This seems contradictory to what the media are saying. Surely there are positives. Does any one you folks know many people who have been made redundant and who are finding it difficult to get a job? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Hi Folks, I currently don't know a lot of people who have been made redundant. I am not saying that I know the whole of the UK, I know a few people here and there not loads. I know quite a few people in the building trade and they seem to be stacked for work. Plus the few people who I know who have been made redundant have found jobs straight away. A few who I know in the factory manufacturing who export to the EU who still have stacks of work and demand has increased. This seems contradictory to what the media are saying. Surely there are positives. Does any one you folks know many people who have been made redundant and who are finding it difficult to get a job? I know plenty of people that have been made redundant, from many different walks of life. Invaraibly those that have re found work have done so on inferior terms to their previous job. Many that have stayed in employment have seen wage cuts and inferior terms. There will always be good stories and bad, good experiences and bad, it isn't a black and white thing. That's best illustrated with the fact that this month both the number of unemployed and the number in work both went up. I think for many, there is a feeling that they are surviving, but are one duff order from a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulieB Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 I think for many, there is a feeling that they are surviving, but are one duff order from a problem. Amen to that! Good to see that Lloyds have announced they are stripping back some of the bonuses paid to top banking executives, who were responsible for PPI. Unfortunately the regulator has so far failed to hold anyone responsible for inventing and implementing this scam on the general public on a massive scale. Lloyds who were one of the worst offenders have had to repay £6Billion in claims and rising! Peanuts though compared to what they made out of PPI overall and their executives were paid Millions in bonuses on the back of mis-selling it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PauloBarnesi Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Bloody Hell. Is there nothing we can build these days South Korea wins Royal Navy tanker deal over UK bidders The tankers will allow destroyers such as HMS Dauntless to refuel at sea Continue reading the main story Related Stories Cuts 'led to MoD cost increases' MoD technical advice 'cost £564m' The Royal Navy has chosen South Korean firm Daewoo for a £452m deal to build four new fuel tankers. The 37,000-tonne Military Afloat Reach and Sustainability (MARS) tankers will allow the Royal Navy to refuel at sea. The tankers, which are due to enter service in 2016, will each measure 200m in length and replace models that date back to the 1970s. UK firms took part in the tender, but the Ministry of Defence (MoD) said none made a final bid to take part. Despite being built in Korea, the UK has won £150m of associated contracts to assist the project. These include £90m on UK contracts for equipment, systems, design and support services. There will be a further £60m investment in the UK to be spent on customising the ships for the Royal Navy, trials and specialist engineering help. The winning design of the four tankers has been completed by UK company BMT Defence Services, based in Bath. Each will be able to fill the equivalent of two Olympic-sized swimming pools in an hour. 'Exceptionally versatile' Minister for Defence Equipment, Support and Technology, Peter Luff, said: "Over the next decade, the government will be investing billions of pounds in our maritime capabilities to ensure that our Royal Navy remains a formidable fighting force. "This project will inject up to £150m into UK industry and support and maintenance will also be carried out in the UK. "The government remains committed to building complex warships in UK shipyards." Chief of Defence Materiel, Bernard Gray, said: "The MARS tanker is an exceptionally versatile platform; able to simultaneously refuel an aircraft carrier and destroyer whilst undertaking helicopter resupply of other vessels". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiggyrichard Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I put it in the General Chat thread but suppose it should well belong in here... MJN Colston (huge mechanical & electrical contracting firm) have gone under this morning! Annual turnover of in excess of £100m :shock: They were the m&e contractor who did the Emirates Stadium! 500 poor **** without a job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulieB Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Why couldn't they have a bail out so as not to lose 500 jobs? Meanwhile back in the financial hub where it counts - RBS announce £2Bn loss whilst paying £700M in bonuses. And the One Account, who are part of RBS write out to all of their customers to say all of their mortgages are going up by 0.25% across the board. Despite the fact that RBS along with all the other banks are borrowing money hand over fist off the Bank of England at almost zero interest rates. You couldn't make it up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hev Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I am one of those people who got made redundant but found another job, although on MUCH lesser terms than before - life's tough but I keep hoping it will get better - one day maybe! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulieB Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I think alot are in the same boat Hev North of Watford especially. Stick with it something else will come along. We're all glued to superscrimpers! Really good Kaiser report on RT.com this week about Iceland and how they got themselves out of the wet & smelly because they took an entirely different approach to solving their economic woes. Done in true Max & Stacy style but interesting to hear how a bankrupt state clawed it's way out of trouble because it did the exact opposite of Ireland, UK or the US. Perhaps Greece should take note. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A.J.Rimmer Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Meanwhile back in the financial hub where it counts - RBS announce £2Bn loss whilst paying £700M in bonuses. Just possibly the loss would have been a great deal higher without the lads who got the big bonuses. Of course, the correct thing would have been for RBS to go bust... a course I advocated most strongly a few years back, and which has now become the accepted wisdom amongst the chairmen of those banks which did not need public funds. I am endlessly amused by the extent to which we wish to be lied to. I listened to this morning's news on the subject of Chinese and Japanese cash to "raise European fire walls" to "beef up the bail out fund" and "bolster the Euro against speculators"... yet the word "BORROW" was never mentioned. Do those who use these terms just think we are stupid, or is stupid what we really are? All the evidence points to the latter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CI Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 RBS are a disgrace and so is Cameron for allowing this Quite frankly, you could have put a bunch of school leavers in to run RBS over the last 5 years and they would have done no worse than the muppets who took the bank down Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A.J.Rimmer Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 RBS are a disgrace and so is Cameron for allowing this Quite frankly, you could have put a bunch of school leavers in to run RBS over the last 5 years and they would have done no worse than the muppets who took the bank down The disgrace belongs to those who bailed the bank out... not Cameron. If I worked at a place underwritten by public money, I'd pay myself a whole lot more! Have to go out... will argue later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CI Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Lloyds losses for the year £3.54 billion Impressive stuff, £350m bonuses all round Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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