LGBTQ+

[mjmooney]

16 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

But genuinely, who’s trying to transition kids that aren’t requesting it themselves?

(Devil's advocate): 

Our laws on child protection are based on the assumption that children below a certain age (the argument rages over what age, exactly) are not ready to take certain decisions. So (for example) it is no defence for a paedophile to say that his victim was a willing participant, even if he or she testifies as such. 

Similarly, just because a child insists that they want to transition, in some cases before puberty, it is not a 'given' that we should comply with their request. 

It leads to all sorts of grey areas and difficult decisions, and possibly even tragic outcomes, but there it is. For now. 

[foreveryoung]

11 hours ago, mjmooney said:

(Devil's advocate): 

Our laws on child protection are based on the assumption that children below a certain age (the argument rages over what age, exactly) are not ready to take certain decisions. So (for example) it is no defence for a paedophile to say that his victim was a willing participant, even if he or she testifies as such. 

Similarly, just because a child insists that they want to transition, in some cases before puberty, it is not a 'given' that we should comply with their request. 

It leads to all sorts of grey areas and difficult decisions, and possibly even tragic outcomes, but there it is. For now. 

I'll make it up to you. This is one of the most sensible answers in any of these highly debatable topics I have read, totally agree.

[tonyh29]

Don’t actually know who they are but the 1975 managed to get a whole festival cancelled in Malaysia yesterday as he kissed one of his male band mates on stage .

Fair play to him , more spine than most corporates and sports are showing in that region.

no idea who pays for the refunds and loss of earning on the festival though , hope he has a big bank account 

[LondonLax]

The 1975 are boring middle of the road rock but fair play. They did something similar in Dubai as well. 

[VILLAMARV]

15 hours ago, mjmooney said:

(Devil's advocate): 

Our laws on child protection are based on the assumption that children below a certain age (the argument rages over what age, exactly) are not ready to take certain decisions. So (for example) it is no defence for a paedophile to say that his victim was a willing participant, even if he or she testifies as such. 

Similarly, just because a child insists that they want to transition, in some cases before puberty, it is not a 'given' that we should comply with their request. 

It leads to all sorts of grey areas and difficult decisions, and possibly even tragic outcomes, but there it is. For now. 

I agree here Mooney and I appreciate the devils advocate bit. Also I think any sensible conversation between people assumes that this grey area exists, but I'm not seeing how it answers the strawman argument of every effeminate boy transitioning that chrisp was asking about or the people being transitioned against their will. Which I'm not saying couldn't exist in reality but as chrisp is saying must be dwarfed by the number of people with a genuine need to reach out for medical advice on the matter.

I thought he was just wondering about the oft heard 'handing it out like sweets' type insinuation. Unless I'm missing something of course.

[mjmooney]

18 minutes ago, VILLAMARV said:

I thought he was just wondering about the oft heard 'handing it out like sweets' type insinuation.

That is often heard, and it's a ridiculous exaggeration. I've mentioned before that one of my daughters worked (in an admin capacity) for the Leeds branch of the Tavistock Clinic during the time all this stuff blew up in the news, so I had a few insights into the nuances involved. Apparently there were quite a few internal arguments about the pros and cons of prepubertal intervention, but it was far from being the cowboy outfit that the media were trying to portray it as. And the media witch hunt tended to make things worse, with spokespersons being constantly pressured to make soundbite statements, thus increasing stress among staff, and a paranoid management. Meanwhile, cases got shelved, and kids suffered due to lack of help. My daughter herself got so pissed off with it all that she left and got another job. Nobody wins. 

[fightoffyour]

1 hour ago, LondonLax said:

The 1975 are boring middle of the road rock but fair play. They did something similar in Dubai as well. 

Say what you want about The 1975 but boring MOR rock is about the least accurate description of them I’ can imagine.

[CVByrne]

On 21/07/2023 at 22:58, chrisp65 said:

But genuinely, who’s trying to transition kids that aren’t requesting it themselves?

The issue is two fold. The first is that they are children and are not able to make fully formed decisions on their life because they are children. The second is that the available body of evidence in the decades of studies on this showed that the overwhelming majority of children who express that they want to be the opposite sex did not transition once they became adults. The majority grew up to be gay and some grew up to be heterosexual and some were trans and did transition. What they needed and got was therapy from mental health professionals. This rush to gender affirming care means that if a child states they are the opposite gender the care now moves to affirming that statement. This goes against evidence based medicine, with all the best intentions we have to stop and ask are we doing more harm to these children than good. What happened at Tavistok was a worrying thing for us all. We need to stop politicising medical care. So of course there a lot of Gay people who disagree with Trans activists on this particular issue. 

[mjmooney]

We could really do with some thoughts from @Eidolon on this, if she's still around. 

[chrisp65]

1 minute ago, CVByrne said:

The issue is two fold. The first is that they are children and are not able to make fully formed decisions on their life because they are children. The second is that the available body of evidence in the decades of studies on this showed that the overwhelming majority of children who express that they want to be the opposite sex did not transition once they became adults. The majority grew up to be gay and some grew up to be heterosexual and some were trans and did transition. What they needed and got was therapy from mental health professionals. This rush to gender affirming care means that if a child states they are the opposite gender the care now moves to affirming that statement. This goes against evidence based medicine, with all the best intentions we have to stop and ask are we doing more harm to these children than good. What happened at Tavistok was a worrying thing for us all. We need to stop politicising medical care. So of course there a lot of Gay people who disagree with Trans activists on this particular issue. 

So, my question again, are there cases, as previously claimed, where children were put on a path to transition when they didn’t want to and hadn’t requested it?

I’m still on the same question because it still hasn’t been answered.

Please show me some evidence of a transitioned person saying it wasn’t at their request.

[mjmooney]

9 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

Please show me some evidence of a transitioned person saying it wasn’t at their request.

Pretty sure there will be zero cases of that. 

But there are a few cases where the person says "Yes, it was at my request, but in hindsight I was a child, and I should have been told to wait, as I now regret my choice". 

[CVByrne]

8 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

So, my question again, are there cases, as previously claimed, where children were put on a path to transition when they didn’t want to and hadn’t requested it?

I’m still on the same question because it still hasn’t been answered.

Please show me some evidence of a transitioned person saying it wasn’t at their request.

Just to be clear here, you are saying that if a child asks to transition then in your opinion regardless of the childs age that transitioning that child to opposite gender is ok? As this is providing gender affirming care to that child

[chrisp65]

On 21/07/2023 at 19:56, CVByrne said:

I don't think it's againt trans people or the trans community. It's the to do with transitioning children and the lack of medical evidence to support the benefits etc.. 

The idea that any effeminate boy means they are trans and should socially transition and then puberty blockers etc.. 

It's that gay men are the ones who understand this more than most is why they seem to be taking issues with the Trans activists. 

Still no examples to offer? That’s fine, I’ll stop asking.

14 minutes ago, CVByrne said:

Just to be clear here, you are saying that if a child asks to transition then in your opinion regardless of the childs age that transitioning that child to opposite gender is ok? As this is providing gender affirming care to that child

No, I’m absolutely not saying that. I don’t know how you’ve drawn that conclusion from anything I’ve said.

 

[CVByrne]

17 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

Still no examples to offer? That’s fine, I’ll stop asking.

No, I’m absolutely not saying that. I don’t know how you’ve drawn that conclusion from anything I’ve said.

I suggest you read up a bit more about this.

The evidence to support medicalised gender transitions in adolescents is worryingly weak (economist.com)

Quote

Europe Adopts A Cautious Approach To Gender-Affirming Care For Minors (forbes.com)

A series of Europe-based systematic reviews of evidence for the benefits and risks of puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones have shown a low certainty of benefits. Specifically, longitudinal data collected and analyzed by public health authorities in Finland, Sweden, the Netherlands and England have concluded that the risk-benefit ratio of youth gender transition ranges from unknown to unfavorable.

 

You can also find many stories online of trans 2 year olds. It's clear who is making the choice for the child in those situations. 

Edited July 23, 2023 by CVByrne

[bobzy]

Just give the examples  

[chrisp65]

I’ve read both those articles, I can’t see anything about effeminate boys being transitioned against their will.

[CVByrne]

1 minute ago, bobzy said:

Just give the examples  

1 hour ago, chrisp65 said:

So, my question again, are there cases, as previously claimed, where children were put on a path to transition when they didn’t want to and hadn’t requested it?

That's not the point. They are being told if you take these puberty blockers they will help you. Saying this to an 11yo who then says yes I want to take them. That's your version of requesting them.

My point is they are children and can't consent, they don't understand the decision they are being asked. 

[chrisp65]

13 minutes ago, CVByrne said:

That's not the point. They are being told if you take these puberty blockers they will help you. Saying this to an 11yo who then says yes I want to take them. That's your version of requesting them.

My point is they are children and can't consent, they don't understand the decision they are being asked. 

That’s twice you’ve decided what my opinion is with nothing to back it up.

 

[Seat68]

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Ct1aAVFuVV3/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

A reel on Instagram. Puppets and a non puppet doing a song about pronouns. 

Edited July 23, 2023 by Seat68

[Eidolon]

4 hours ago, CVByrne said:

That's not the point. They are being told if you take these puberty blockers they will help you. Saying this to an 11yo who then says yes I want to take them. That's your version of requesting them.

My point is they are children and can't consent, they don't understand the decision they are being asked. 

You are flat out wrong I'm sorry. I'm not asking this as a gotcha but as a sincere question, do you actually know any trans people in your life? Beyond having been an out transwoman for over a decade the vast majority of my social circles are naturally trans people and I have never met anyone who expressed anything but a desire that they had been able to transition earlier and not go through the disastrous effects of the wrong puberty.

The phenomenon of De-transitioners are a vanishingly small number of people who transition and the vastly overwhelming majority of them de-transition or experience regret due entirely to societal issues outside of our control (institutionalized violence, work/housing discrimination, familial ostracisation, social stigma and constantly having to defend our rapidly diminishing access to health care and right to even exist) most respondents stress that in an equal world they would continue their transition.

FWIW I have known who I was since I was 7 and it hasn't wavered for a day. I attempted suicide multiple times before transitioning and haven't ONCE since getting my first round of HRT despite the fact that my life is materially probably in a much less stable position due to unrelated factors. Every serious study done on Gender Affirming care shows it is not only the best way to manage Gender Dysphoria but that alternatives amount to having the same disastrous outcomes as conversion therapy.

Why is a kid who is sure they are cis at 11 valid and encouraged to play physically punishing sport, go to the gym,  learn to box whatever they want in pursuit of those ideals (stuff that can do way worse damage to your body at a young age than blockers which have been shown to be completely benign with no long term effects in the vast majority of cases) valid in making those decisions but an 11yr old who is sure they are trans 'not capable of making that decision? Surely by that logic we should just label every child as agender until they are an adult and then they can decide for themselves? You can stop taking blockers, you can't undo puberty.

Trust me as someone who has actually BEEN THROUGH the very process you are describing that is SO not how it works. getting HRT especially in your country requires numerous visits to mostly hostile GPs, therapists and other people who at any point can and do knock you back to square one and thats without even touching on the YEARS long wait lists to even get that first appointment.

Doctors are not waving puberty blockers are kids that dont specifically request them, it just doesn't happen outside of the unsubstantiated anecdotal evidence springing from places like Mumsnet and other GC circles with a vested interest.