Rolta Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 On 28/01/2024 at 02:52, Muller Yogurt Long Sleever said: I've left the crest subject alone for a few weeks but am still exasperated not only at the lack of consultation, but at the glaring design faults with the more-than-likely new thing. Everyone has an opinion on stars, 1874, crest or roundel, which lion, which way it faces and whatnot - and none of these opinions can really be considered right or wrong. But what is pretty much inarguable are the terrible colour choices, resulting clunky drop shadow and positioning of the lion scraping his head. What's also so annoying is that this basic design - which whilst not my choice of arrangement - could at least just work with a bit of refinement (in my opinion). Since it leaked, we've all seen enough Villa badges to have a different one every season until the end of time. So I know this is futile but I appear to have done it now, blame insomnia... This is it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teale's 'tache Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 To sort of visually back up what @ThunderPower_14 is saying here. The Premier League will have guidelines on how much space a crest can take up on a kit, I don't know specifically what they are, but I'd imagine the area allowed is square in shape as this accommodates most logo/crest shapes. So in the graphic below if you imagine the grey squares are the amount of space your crest is allowed to use, and see how much smaller you have to make your crest to accommodate a star above it, especially at smaller sizes. You can also see that Forest can get away with losing the vertical space because they have a simple easily definable shape, even at small sizes, having two stars rather than one helps as well. Detailed crests cannot afford to lose the vertical space as they are already fighting a battle at smaller sizes and need all the space they can get. This is also likely why you don't get very tall or very wide crests. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muller Yogurt Long Sleever Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 It's all true. The thinking was the star only appears as a shirt feature, not on the standard every day badge. Whether that's a possibility or not, doesn't really matter if the monstrosity is locked in - as I said it all feels pretty futile so just making the rules up! NURSE! My make-believe version goes by thinking that if there's not a natural position for the star, and 1874 for that matter, they can be dropped - they can come through wider branding and communications, and will still be seen plenty. If they were vital elements then design with them in mind in the first place - what we've been landed with is professional shoehorning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teale's 'tache Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 6 minutes ago, Muller Yogurt Long Sleever said: It's all true. The thinking was the star only appears as a shirt feature, not on the standard every day badge. Whether that's a possibility or not, doesn't really matter if the monstrosity is locked in - as I said it all feels pretty futile so just making the rules up! NURSE! My make-believe version goes by thinking that if there's not a natural position for the star, and 1874 for that matter, they can be dropped - they can come through wider branding and communications, and will still be seen plenty. If they were vital elements then design with them in mind in the first place - what we've been landed with is professional shoehorning. Your design is nice, and having the star above is much better from a design point of view, for the sake of symmetry if nothing else. However, we don't know 100% what all of the restrictions in place are. Can we change the colours? Can we change the lion? I try to design to what I think they may be, but it is all guesswork. The leaked crest suggests to me there are a lot more restrictions in place than I thought. If there were no restrictions, no surveys to work to etc. I'd drop the star and 1874 as well, as you say it can be used elsewhere as part of the brand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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The Fun Factory Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 1 hour ago, Teale's 'tache said: To sort of visually back up what @ThunderPower_14 is saying here. The Premier League will have guidelines on how much space a crest can take up on a kit, I don't know specifically what they are, but I'd imagine the area allowed is square in shape as this accommodates most logo/crest shapes. So in the graphic below if you imagine the grey squares are the amount of space your crest is allowed to use, and see how much smaller you have to make your crest to accommodate a star above it, especially at smaller sizes. You can also see that Forest can get away with losing the vertical space because they have a simple easily definable shape, even at small sizes, having two stars rather than one helps as well. Detailed crests cannot afford to lose the vertical space as they are already fighting a battle at smaller sizes and need all the space they can get. This is also likely why you don't get very tall or very wide crests. Luton Town- Champions League Winners, 2035 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stewiek2 Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 5 hours ago, Teale's 'tache said: To sort of visually back up what @ThunderPower_14 is saying here. The Premier League will have guidelines on how much space a crest can take up on a kit, I don't know specifically what they are, but I'd imagine the area allowed is square in shape as this accommodates most logo/crest shapes. So in the graphic below if you imagine the grey squares are the amount of space your crest is allowed to use, and see how much smaller you have to make your crest to accommodate a star above it, especially at smaller sizes. You can also see that Forest can get away with losing the vertical space because they have a simple easily definable shape, even at small sizes, having two stars rather than one helps as well. Detailed crests cannot afford to lose the vertical space as they are already fighting a battle at smaller sizes and need all the space they can get. This is also likely why you don't get very tall or very wide crests. I'm surprised football clubs haven't followed alot of the big global brands regards responsive logos. So for example, that Forest badge can easily be more legible smaller, you simple have just the tree and ground without the stars and word Forest. I get it's harder for clubs as the detailing is more on badges, but, as Man United's 3rd kit and Arsenal's and Liverpool shows, just the red devil, cannon and liverbird still make it clear who the club is. McDonalds have variant sizes if the full arches and wording and just arches when used smaller. I guess the idea behind the lion facing the way the current round badge does is so that when smaller just that lion is used and distinguished at as Villa by facing that way and being claret. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teale's 'tache Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 6 minutes ago, stewiek2 said: I'm surprised football clubs haven't followed alot of the big global brands regards responsive logos. So for example, that Forest badge can easily be more legible smaller, you simple have just the tree and ground without the stars and word Forest. I get it's harder for clubs as the detailing is more on badges, but, as Man United's 3rd kit and Arsenal's and Liverpool shows, just the red devil, cannon and liverbird still make it clear who the club is. McDonalds have variant sizes if the full arches and wording and just arches when used smaller. I guess the idea behind the lion facing the way the current round badge does is so that when smaller just that lion is used and distinguished at as Villa by facing that way and being claret. As you've mentioned it's something that has happened on kits and I'd imagine some clubs with more modern crests (like the Juventus redesign) do have variations for different sizes or are at least more optimised to be used in different ways. I think part of the problem is that the Premier League itself is a brand, and all of the crests of the teams in it are part of that brand, so it's not like each club has total control of how their crest is used in every single piece of branding, they can put out guidelines for how their crests should be used, but not everyone that uses them will follow it to the letter, managing the different guidelines of 20 different brands would be difficult and from a legal standpoint they are just guidelines, you could maybe stop someone from using your crest altogether but that only usually happens in extreme examples. Some of these crests are very old, or based on very old designs, it's difficult to modernise something so old to work on new media, whoever designed the original Burnley Crest wasn't thinking 'I need to make sure this scales down well for a profile picture on X in 80 years time'. Finally, people (generally) do not like change, plenty fear it and crave the familiar. Even the Juventus redesign upset some people on here, that's a club from another country with no affiliation to us whatsoever, so you do have to be very careful in how you update things, incremental changes are more likely to be accepted. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejs1111 Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 The star/badge location issue is another reason why I've been enamored with the AVFC round badge. The answer to me is so simple. Just put the star in the round ring of the badge at the bottom, which leaves space for future stars should they come. Put the 18 and 74 on either side of the ring (at 9oclock and 3oclock). Then have Aston Villa arching across the top. Sort out the colors, face the lion however the fans want, make the lion a bit detailed... job done. I wholeheartedly agree with an earlier post from Capt Town. The circle badge should have been the starting point- then just make improvements from it (like what I listed above). We will never have a unanimous opinion regarding the badge, but the round badge was something like 75% voted on- so it was overwhelmingly agreed upon by fans. Just very disappointed that we have not started at this point and made revisions, instead we scrapped it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolta Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 Why can Forest put the stars above their badge but we can't? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrBlack Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 2 minutes ago, Rolta said: Why can Forest put the stars above their badge but we can't? It's covered here on this very page: 7 hours ago, Teale's 'tache said: To sort of visually back up what @ThunderPower_14 is saying here. The Premier League will have guidelines on how much space a crest can take up on a kit, I don't know specifically what they are, but I'd imagine the area allowed is square in shape as this accommodates most logo/crest shapes. So in the graphic below if you imagine the grey squares are the amount of space your crest is allowed to use, and see how much smaller you have to make your crest to accommodate a star above it, especially at smaller sizes. You can also see that Forest can get away with losing the vertical space because they have a simple easily definable shape, even at small sizes, having two stars rather than one helps as well. Detailed crests cannot afford to lose the vertical space as they are already fighting a battle at smaller sizes and need all the space they can get. This is also likely why you don't get very tall or very wide crests. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolta Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 Just now, MrBlack said: It's covered here on this very page: I read that after I posted! That'll teach me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrBlack Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 1 minute ago, Rolta said: I read that after I posted! That'll teach me. I recall now that when we proposed it originally we wanted to keep our "badge" (shield) the same size and have a star above it. Does make sense to abandon the frame and go down the forest route if people desperately want to demonstrate our European Cup win, but the same fans that want the star seem to be the same fans that want a circle, and 1874, and our full name, as demonstrated by the recent polls. The club in a no win situation really, but they could definitely do better than they're offering Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jas10 Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 Listening to MOMS podcast… the crest hasn’t received FA approval… they haven’t passed the second Villa crest… Club haven’t adhered to the rules (in terms of fan engagement), hasn’t been approved… 1 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jas10 Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 Heck and Hatton were asked about the rules… they said “we’re not doing consultation, we’re leaving it to the professionals…” 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain_Townsend Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 8 minutes ago, Jas10 said: Listening to MOMS podcast… the crest hasn’t received FA approval… they haven’t passed the second Villa crest… Club haven’t adhered to the rules (in terms of fan engagement), hasn’t been approved… Wow, not a good look Mr Heck. Oh, and your badge was crap too. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrchnry Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 Thats a big balls up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May-Z Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 As the badge launches were so close to each other, can the original consultation be used towards the second design? Or is it the final vote for a badge from a given choice that has been missing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain_Townsend Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 (edited) 3 minutes ago, May-Z said: As the badge launches were so close to each other, can the original consultation be used towards the second design? Or is it the final vote for a badge from a given choice that has been missing? They can hardly use the original consultation to back up the Heck badge seeing as they could not be more different. The original process was about moving to a new style of badge away from the Lerner badge but Heck's moves us back closer to the Lerner one. An unnecessary mess. Edited January 30 by Captain_Townsend Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrBlack Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 3 minutes ago, May-Z said: As the badge launches were so close to each other, can the original consultation be used towards the second design? Or is it the final vote for a badge from a given choice that has been missing? Someone said the vote on a new badge wasn't an optional step. If they are claiming to use the only poll they've offered as a mandate that says we voted for another badge change, maybe the FA have said that isn't the rule, let alone the spirit of the rule, and so they've been told they have to put it to a genuine this or that vote. But whatever they're saying it doesn't make sense why there is so much radio silence on this. Its really really poor by Heck, and gets worse every day that goes by where we hear nothing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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