"The Terrace View" - Upper Holte Lounge

[MrBlack]

2 minutes ago, cheltenham_villa said:

i dont think i agree that it was underhand.

The club is asking questions to try and determine where a demand may exist to increase revenue, it wasnt about getting permission, they dont need that. It was clear to me that they were targeting some form of hospitality linked ticket and lots of people had an interest. That tells the club that the demand maybe there. 

Your issue is with the price and the fact that these seats have now been offered to non STs, that wasnt explicit but why would it need to be? . I dont agree by with the costs, i dont agree with the price increases to STs but they are not surprises to me. I dont see the club coming out and saying that  prices will be held, in my opinion they are consistent in showing that they need to generate more funds and some of that will mean that fans are paying more.

 

You seem to be suggesting they expected the existing ticket holders to buy up the offering and just happen to have ended up expanding it because they didn't.

I think they could have expected most not to jump at the chance to spend this much more (and probably did) when they're already hit by greater than inflation increases. And so I view it as a more conscious effort to flood the stand with more money, rather than an accidental "well, we've got to sell the tickets to someone now".

Also, I wasn't saying they needed permission, just that they dont appear to have been very open about their intent. And I think it was deliberate.

If you don't then that's fine...we'll never know for sure, and you are right that they've clearly got an aim to increase revenue, so maybe assumptions should have been made by the ST holders when they were interviewed. 

[TRO]

35 minutes ago, MrBlack said:

I agree with the sentiment that this is being marketed as a new corporate/ hospitality type offering and hence you can't say the people taking it up are jumping the queue.

But you can definitely lay some blame and anger at the club's doors for how it's been handled.

They interviewed season ticket holders for their opinions and used them to justify putting the service in.  To then deliver a service that clearly was never targeted at them is underhand and I don't like it.  Not to mention that the season ticket holders are complaining about the existing service, and will now find that they're actually worse off with less room than they had before, and will be paying over inflation increases for the privilege.

The club should have been more honest about what they were doing 

just being devils advocate.....but they would not know pre hand, who they would be targeting or would not be targeting....there is no financial means test, as far as I can see.

Maybe initially, it was just a feasibility test, so honesty, was not a pre-requisite, as there was no intention to be dishonest.

I think the club, might be coming in for a bit of unfair criticism.

Edited August 2, 2023 by TRO

[cheltenham_villa]

3 minutes ago, MrBlack said:

You seem to be suggesting they expected the existing ticket holders to buy up the offering and just happen to have ended up expanding it because they didn't.

I think they could have expected most not to jump at the chance to spend this much more (and probably did) when they're already hit by greater than inflation increases. And so I view it as a more conscious effort to flood the stand with more money, rather than an accidental "well, we've got to sell the tickets to someone now".

Also, I wasn't saying they needed permission, just that they dont appear to have been very open about their intent. And I think it was deliberate.

If you don't then that's fine...we'll never know for sure, and you are right that they've clearly got an aim to increase revenue, so maybe assumptions should have been made by the ST holders when they were interviewed. 

Im torn.

My inclination is to say they expected to sell upgrades to existing STs and then when that didnt happen they reverted.

They may have intended all along to sell the remaining to non season ticket holders, my point is more that this information isnt really relevant in the season ticket holders survey as it doesnt really impact the majority of them. 

My feeling is that the club would say this is obvious. If existing STs dont want the ticket, they will start selling them to other fans and using the season ticket waiting list to do this (thats what it is for).

The issue is really around cost and fairness to those that cannot afford a premium ticket. My feeling is that the club would say this is an existing problem, weve got 30k season ticket holders and many would not have been able to afford either. This already means that a group of fans that can afford a couple of games per season are very likely excluded already.

Also respect your opinion here, i like the debate and try to see different sides to the discussion.

 

[MrBlack]

4 minutes ago, TRO said:

just being devils advocate.....but they would not know pre hand, who they would be targeting or would not be targeting....there is no financial means test, as far as I can see.

Maybe initially, it was just a feasibility test, so honesty, was not a pre-requisite, as there was no intention to be dishonest.

I think the club, might be coming in for a bit of unfair, criticism.

You don't launch a product without knowing if there is demand though.  If they thought ST holders would take them up, then they got it very wrong which doesn't reflect well on them. They could have got a guide on what price point was viable for their expected market.

If they thought they wouldn't take them up and knew they were going to be opening up the offering it also doesn't reflect well on them.

As @cheltenham_villa says above, it isnt clear cut. Thinking it through some more, maybe the fact its all very last minute and still doesn't seem to have sold out maybe does point more to poorly thought through, rather than consciously excluding existing ST holders.

I'm torn too now, but it's definitely one of (very few) bad points against the club lately. Maybe the last hangover from Purslow and hopefully one they'll learn some lessons from when they have to sort out the messaging when the North stand closes.

[TRO]

8 minutes ago, cheltenham_villa said:

Im torn.

My inclination is to say they expected to sell upgrades to existing STs and then when that didnt happen they reverted.

They may have intended all along to sell the remaining to non season ticket holders, my point is more that this information isnt really relevant in the season ticket holders survey as it doesnt really impact the majority of them. 

My feeling is that the club would say this is obvious. If existing STs dont want the ticket, they will start selling them to other fans and using the season ticket waiting list to do this (thats what it is for).

The issue is really around cost and fairness to those that cannot afford a premium ticket. My feeling is that the club would say this is an existing problem, weve got 30k season ticket holders and many would not have been able to afford either. This already means that a group of fans that can afford a couple of games per season are very likely excluded already.

Also respect your opinion here, i like the debate and try to see different sides to the discussion.

 

I mainly share your view....but others make thought provoking points too.

It can't be easy trying to get a quart in to a pint pot.

Edited August 2, 2023 by TRO

[turvontour]

3 hours ago, delboy54 said:

Football is becoming an expensive hobby for me. Next year I shall be retired reaching the ancient age of 66. I live near Newmarket in deepest Suffolk and its a 2 hr drive from home to VP, and then back again....

I love watching the Villa live, and have followed them since the late 1960's, but football is changing, maybe it always was changing (just like the length of a players shorts!), but it is becoming an expensive option for me.

I have to admit to being very disappointed with the situation regarding tickets and what is happening to the Holte End and how Aston Villa FC have been handling it. It doesn't bother me about people "jumping the queue" just because they can afford to, or chose to, its just like choosing to purchasing a business class air fare instead of economy class, good luck to them. I suppose forking out £1500 will mark anyone who pays for the Terrace View as an even crazier Villa Fan 

It just feels that its the price of success, more expensive seats, increasing prices of ST, selling Claret memberships to supporters who will find it harder to get a ticket, trying to entice more "tourists" to get the "Villa experience", etc. All this has, or is being done by the top clubs, we are no different if we want to compete and bring in more money.

But this extra money does it really make that much difference to the income?..... does it really outweigh the argument to pi$$ing off supporters of AVFC ?, 

I agree with a lot of this and it's a shame but I think the cost increases are moving in line with the rising cost of everything. Differently though with villa season tickets is that its once a year it goes up, so more noticeable than smaller increases in some other things which rise more regularly, and we also have this forum to voice the anger/concern.  Villa cost me £25 a game to go to a decade ago. It's now £40 or £50. It now costs £40 to go bowling for an hour as a family when it used to be £20. The cinema is £10 a ticket now near me when its was £5 ten years ago. You could argue aswell that we at Villa were disproportionately cheap ticket wise across the last decade. 

There is also the fact that we are playing well, on the up and competing in the top half of the premier league. Take a club like Sheffield Wednesday for example, they have very similar ST prices to us and were league one last season. 

[DakotaVilla]

The tickets that are not sold on a season ticket basis are pretty much guaranteed to sell out on an individual match day basis for most league games so let’s stop this nonsense saying that there isn’t sufficient demand. 

Special occasions and international lions club members will take up the majority and the bottom line is that when these are the only tickets left in the stadium they will sell as someone will pay 80 quid or whatever the match day price will be if that’s their only option of getting a ticket. 

[cheltenham_villa]

3 minutes ago, MrBlack said:

You don't launch a product without knowing if there is demand though.  If they thought ST holders would take them up, then they got it very wrong which doesn't reflect well on them. They could have got a guide on what price point was viable for their expected market.

If they thought they wouldn't take them up and knew they were going to be opening up the offering it also doesn't reflect well on them.

As @cheltenham_villa says above, it isnt clear cut. Thinking it through some more, maybe the fact its all very last minute and still doesn't seem to have sold out maybe does point more to poorly thought through, rather than consciously excluding existing ST holders.

I'm torn too now, but it's definitely one of (very few) bad points against the club lately. Maybe the last hangover from Purslow and hopefully one they'll learn some lessons from when they have to sort out the messaging when the North stand closes.

one thing i fully agree on is it feels very last minute. The new "product" wasnt full explained and information seems to drip out a bit at a time and allows for speculation. The more recent speculation around away ticket allocation being included is still more anecdotal, it would help if the club clarified this. Similarly it would probably help if the club had clarified this at the start, id have paid more for an away ticket allocation selfishly as i havent been able to get to an away game for years.

I'm hoping that this last info is more to do with the club not really knowing what was happening with the north stand and its timings as well as not really knowing if we would be competing in Europe or not. Both things probably impact our costs and ability to earn revenue. 

[The Fun Factory]

I know this is a crazy thought but could the club have, you know, just refurbished the Ramsey bar and let everyone use it and charge a bit more for food and drink?

Edited August 2, 2023 by The Fun Factory

[ender4]

5 minutes ago, turvontour said:

  Villa cost me £25 a game to go to a decade ago. It's now £40 or £50.

Villa cost me '3 games for £30' deal a decade ago. I think it was Chelsea, Spurs and a relegation team. It's what got me hooked into watching Villa in the stadium on a regular basis. 

Chelsea, Spurs and Luton in the same seats would now cost me £159 (58.50+58.50+42).

Terrace View is £82 a game as a season ticket, and i'm guessing £120 on an individual basis. 

That's some increase in 10 years.

[brommy]

6 minutes ago, ender4 said:

Villa cost me '3 games for £30' deal a decade ago. I think it was Chelsea, Spurs and a relegation team. It's what got me hooked into watching Villa in the stadium on a regular basis. 

Chelsea, Spurs and Luton in the same seats would now cost me £159 (58.50+58.50+42).

Terrace View is £82 a game as a season ticket, and i'm guessing £120 on an individual basis. 

That's some increase in 10 years.

What is your guess of £120 built from?

[blobbyrob]

11 minutes ago, ender4 said:

Villa cost me '3 games for £30' deal a decade ago. I think it was Chelsea, Spurs and a relegation team. It's what got me hooked into watching Villa in the stadium on a regular basis. 

Chelsea, Spurs and Luton in the same seats would now cost me £159 (58.50+58.50+42).

Terrace View is £82 a game as a season ticket, and i'm guessing £120 on an individual basis. 

That's some increase in 10 years.

Which also includes 2 pints and a programme every game. Obviously only valid if you would normally buy those anyway. 

Edited August 2, 2023 by blobbyrob

[MrBlack]

32 minutes ago, brommy said:

What is your guess of £120 built from?

I'd guess it's more likely going to be around the £100 point.

The relative increase between a regular ST per match cost and on the day ticket price is about 20% isn't it?

[ender4]

1 hour ago, brommy said:

What is your guess of £120 built from?

Complete guess. It might be £100, it might be £150. I took a stab in the dark.

 

But hold on... let's calculate. What's a Zone 1 season ticket? Is it around £800? If so, then £42 a game.

Zone 1 on match by match is £68 and £51 - averaging £59.50 a game.

That's an increase of 42% of an individual ticket vs a season ticket. 

So that's £82 Terrace View season ticket +42% = £116.

 

Edited August 2, 2023 by ender4

[mikeyp102]

6 hours ago, delboy54 said:

Football is becoming an expensive hobby for me. Next year I shall be retired reaching the ancient age of 66. I live near Newmarket in deepest Suffolk and its a 2 hr drive from home to VP, and then back again....

I love watching the Villa live, and have followed them since the late 1960's, but football is changing, maybe it always was changing (just like the length of a players shorts!), but it is becoming an expensive option for me.

I have to admit to being very disappointed with the situation regarding tickets and what is happening to the Holte End and how Aston Villa FC have been handling it. It doesn't bother me about people "jumping the queue" just because they can afford to, or chose to, its just like choosing to purchasing a business class air fare instead of economy class, good luck to them. I suppose forking out £1500 will mark anyone who pays for the Terrace View as an even crazier Villa Fan 

It just feels that its the price of success, more expensive seats, increasing prices of ST, selling Claret memberships to supporters who will find it harder to get a ticket, trying to entice more "tourists" to get the "Villa experience", etc. All this has, or is being done by the top clubs, we are no different if we want to compete and bring in more money.

But this extra money does it really make that much difference to the income?..... does it really outweigh the argument to pi$$ing off supporters of AVFC ?, 

I understand the point.

From a devils advocate point of view, re your last paragraph. The club will point out that they sold out STs with majority renewals as waiting list not changed much, they would argue that fans aren’t pissed off enough not to renew.

[brommy]

2 hours ago, ender4 said:

Complete guess. It might be £100, it might be £150. I took a stab in the dark.

 

But hold on... let's calculate. What's a Zone 1 season ticket? Is it around £800? If so, then £42 a game.

Zone 1 on match by match is £68 and £51 - averaging £59.50 a game.

That's an increase of 42% of an individual ticket vs a season ticket. 

So that's £82 Terrace View season ticket +42% = £116.

 

Are you assuming the mark up on ST average match cost to match day sale cost will be copied to the entrance of the TV Lounge?

Membership to the Terrace View Lounge costs £480 (averaging £25.26 per game). Knowing the high availability but also not wanting to annoy those who have paid the £480 up front, I'll be surprised if the day entrance is much higher or lower than £30.

The average cost of a match day ticket in Zone 1 (covering the central 50% of the Upper Holte) is £58.16 (((11x51)+(8x68))/19).

Adding my guestimated entrance fee of £30 to £58.16 for the average match day seat cost would equal £88.16 or £1675 for the 19 game league season. Still £115 per season or £6.05 per game more expensive than the £1560 TV lounge season for non-ST holders, but not near the £116 to £120 per game you were predicting.

In summary, it will depend on the match day price to enter the lounge. My guess is around £30. Your guess assumes around £60, which I just can't envisage.

 

Edited August 2, 2023 by brommy
TV, not VT.

[ender4]

3 minutes ago, brommy said:

Are you assuming the mark up on ST average match cost to match day sale cost will be copied to the entrance of the VT lounge?

Membership to the VT Lounge costs £480 (averaging £25.26 per game). Knowing the high availability but also not wanting to annoy those who have paid the £480 up front, I'll be surprised if the day entrance is much higher or lower than £30.

The average cost of a match day ticket in Zone 1 (covering the central 50% of the Upper Holte) is £58.16 (((11x51)+(8x68))/19).

Adding my guestimated entrance fee of £30 to £58.16 for the average match day seat cost would equal £88.16 or £1675 for the 19 game league season. Still £115 per season or £6.05 per game more expensive than the £1560 VT lounge season for non-ST holders, but not near the £116 to £120 per game you were predicting.

In summary, it will depend on the match day price to enter the lounge. My guess is around £30. Your guess assumes around £60, which I just can't envisage.

 

No, i'm not assuming anything. As i mentioned twice, i took a complete random number as my guess. I could have guessed £150 or £200 or £50. I literally just picked a round number with zero thought process behind it.

But then in my follow-up i thought it might be fun to work out what they charge extra for day tickets compared to season tickets. I'm not necessarily trying to equate the two, i'm on the waiting list and having to buy tickets individually.  That is what it's going to cost me extra this season.

I like your workings though. I don't know what a VT lounge membership is but sounds fun. Can i buy that as a one-off as i wouldn't mind that?

[brommy]

1 minute ago, ender4 said:

No, i'm not assuming anything. As i mentioned twice, i took a complete random number as my guess. I could have guessed £150 or £200 or £50. I literally just picked a round number with zero thought process behind it.

But then in my follow-up i thought it might be fun to work out what they charge extra for day tickets compared to season tickets. I'm not necessarily trying to equate the two, i'm on the waiting list and having to buy tickets individually.  That is what it's going to cost me extra this season.

I like your workings though. I don't know what a VT lounge membership is but sounds fun. Can i buy that as a one-off as i wouldn't mind that?

A Villa Talk Lounge would be . Edit upcoming!

[brommy]

9 minutes ago, ender4 said:

No, i'm not assuming anything. As i mentioned twice, i took a complete random number as my guess. I could have guessed £150 or £200 or £50. I literally just picked a round number with zero thought process behind it.

But then in my follow-up i thought it might be fun to work out what they charge extra for day tickets compared to season tickets. I'm not necessarily trying to equate the two, i'm on the waiting list and having to buy tickets individually.  That is what it's going to cost me extra this season.

I like your workings though. I don't know what a VT lounge membership is but sounds fun. Can i buy that as a one-off as i wouldn't mind that?

I've guessed £30. What price do you think the match day entrance to the Terrace View Lounge will be?

[DewiMckay]

Terrace View Season Ticket Holders recieved this email today regarding away tickets.