Ratings & Reactions: Villa v Arsenal

[TRO]

1 hour ago, tinker said:

When you look at McGinns goal that was disallowed for the same offence their keeper was nowhere near being unsighted, Martinez had two of there players blocking his view, one ducked.

If it looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck then it's a duck. We are being cheated out of results by officials who are being influenced to side with the biggest gobs. 

I'm not sure how the officials make the distinction, between the 2 scenario's....it does seem to be  heads you lose ,tails you lose.......but dealing with it, it the subjective bit.

[TRO]

On 20/02/2023 at 09:51, TheMelvillan said:

In life those who shout loudest tend to get their way.

If that third goal had gone in against Utd, or Liverpool or any of the other big teams with winning mentalities and records, you can bet that three, four players would have been in the referees face, calling for offside, demanding VAR have a look, IRRESPECTIVE of if that's what they saw, or believed.

It is hateful, childish, ghastly behaviour, but tends to be extremely effective.

On the other hand, look at the Villa players, hands on knees, hands on hips, strolling dejectedly back to the centre circle. Our fearless captain laying on the ground in defeat.

Football is a game of margins and, crucially,  gamesmanship - that innate, ugly ability to use everything in your power to influence the outcome of a result, and to win.

 

VAR should be there to balance that gamesmanship - to make everything black and white, but it doesn't. In NFL every scoring play is reviewed, as standard. This doesn't seem to apply to football and I don't know why. Maybe if there was enough noise on the pitch this one would have, but I fear that Villa players simply lack that winning gene which would have caused their behaviour to force the referee into this action

I think you are touching on some of the issues, we have presided over, for some time.....this goes back to 3/4 managers...and the players are neither one thing or the other....not good enough to go toe to toe, and not aggresive enough to go the other way.

I am not looking for a thuggish team, but we we lack aggression as a fundamental part of our make up.....we haven't really got one on the pitch or in the squad, to inspire us..and sadly we don't seem to have the appetite as a club to go and get one.

We don't seem to think they are important, we roll over, have our belly tickled, and still the penny don't drop.

I think Unai, knows, and I do think he will get it right.....but I don't see years of it at BMH changing over night.

We will see, a different Everton on Saturday, led by Sean Dyche......It will be interesting to see and Elite manager, up against what many see as a Dinosaur....the outcome will be intriguing.

This is still not Unai's team, and I am not cutting him slack for the sake of it, but he needs a summer window to get this on the way to being right.

PS We need a William Wallace TYPE.......look how Casemiro has affected Man U.

 

 

Edited February 21, 2023 by TRO

[TRO]

2 hours ago, BleedClaretAndBlue said:

 

but the question was not put to Dermot, why was Villa on the wrong end of the decision at the Emirates.....They would be excused for thinking, we rarely get the benefit of the doubt.

Dermot says there is no wrong or right answer.....so we get the tough call on both cases.....and so do Man City, get the brunt of it.

That alone feeds the flames of bias.

Edited February 20, 2023 by TRO

[markavfc40]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

Everton Managed it.....

They did. Only one of two teams in the league, along with Man Utd, to have beaten Arsenal at home all season. As I said a bit of perspective is needed as we were up against an excellent side who are top of the league and who have an excellent away record.

On the balance of play Arsenal just about deserved to win but we performed well enough that I still came away disappointed that we didn't take anything, and of course a little aggrieved that in the end the deciding factor was an off side goal that should have been ruled out.

[TRO]

3 hours ago, markavfc40 said:

They did. Only one of two teams in the league, along with Man Utd, to have beaten Arsenal at home all season. As I said a bit of perspective is needed as we were up against an excellent side who are top of the league and who have an excellent away record.

On the balance of play Arsenal just about deserved to win but we performed well enough that I still came away disappointed that we didn't take anything, and of course a little aggrieved that in the end the deciding factor was an off side goal that should have been ruled out.

Ironically, thats what I am seeking.

essentially this is still a Dean Smith team, if we go by the signings, so I guess, we are all expecting too much....but other teams like Everton and Forest are turning their nose up at the form book.

I am hoping for a good summer, but we said that after 10 games last year under Gerrard.....we just have to see what unfolds.

 

Edited February 21, 2023 by TRO

[danceoftheshamen]

9 hours ago, TRO said:

Thats when they allow goals against us and change the rules after, as at Man City......are we the guinea pigs of the Prem?

It's not just us Tro, Its the same for the other 13 teams who are not part of the " we want a super league" group. I work with loads of Leicester &  Forest fans and also a couple of Wolves & Derby fans. We also deal with drivers from all over the UK so there are fans of most of the clubs I speak to regularly. This is happening the same with them also, always against those same teams. So I am not trying to say "Villa are singled out" far from it. This is much bigger than that. It is a Premier league issue generally with all of the teams suffering like us at the hands of officials who are following two sets of rules. One for those "big 6" clubs & one for the other 13 of which we are one. 

It's a disgrace quite frankly & needs calling out, which is why I do call it out every time it's rears it's head. 

Leicester got a couple of duff calls at Old Trafford this weekend for instance when apparently a UTD player should have seen red. Sound familiar? 

It must be worth no end of points per season to those clubs, so it's no wonder they can have an absolutely awful year & still be there or there abouts.

It does my head in having to repeatedly talk about it but then we simply have to make more noise about it so it's harder to get away with it for those involved. Keep saying things like "it all balances out over the season" etc is effectively facilitating it.

[nick76]

 

[TheMelvillan]

12 hours ago, TRO said:

I think you are touching on some of the issues, we have presided over, for some time.....this goes back to 3/4 managers...and the players are neither one thing or the other....not good enough to go toe to toe, and not aggresive enough to go the other way.

I am not looking for a thuggish team, but we we lack aggression as a fundamental part of our make up.....we haven't really got one on the pitch or in the squad, to inspire us..and sadly we don't seem to have the appetite as a club to go and get one.

We don't seem to think they are important, we roll over, have our belly tickled, and still the penny don't drop.

I think Unai, knows, and I do think he will get it right.....but I don't see years of it at BMH changing over night.

We will see, a different Everton on Saturday, led by Sean Dyche......It will be interesting to see and Elite manager, up against what many see as a Dinosaur....the outcome will be intriguing.

This is still not Unai's team, and I am not cutting him slack for the sake of it, but he needs a summer window to get this on the way to being right.

 

 

Its strange though that i'm not even sure it is purely a personnel issue. There is nearly something intangible about us, as a club, that cant quite be identified or defined - a history or complex of underachievement and disappointment. an expectation of failure and defeat. The number of times we are in a position to win a game, defend a lead or push on as a club and we dont grasp it is mind boggling.

It may just be a case of just going out to get a "Roy Keane" type but this feels a bit reductive of a bigger issue. Hopefully it is something that will change now we have a manager who has actually won things. The last manager we had with a track record of success as a manager was probably DiMatteo - and that was a one off and hardly all his doing. Maybe it is a genuine culture of winning and knowing how to win that we need. We may have some excellent players - but successful ones? There a many excellent footballers in the world who can do anything they want with the ball - but are they winners?, do they have that x-factor that drives them to see a job out and win at any cost?

I see the same issue - albeit on a different scale - with Chelsea at the moment. A bunch of excellent new young players but do they know how to win games? Time will tell with both teams but it is hella frustrating lol

[PaulC]

If martinez view was blocked surely he would have been the first to complain. Emery never made that an excuse for losing. It seems that's its only on here that people have an issue with it.

 

[TRO]

7 hours ago, TheMelvillan said:

Its strange though that i'm not even sure it is purely a personnel issue. There is nearly something intangible about us, as a club, that cant quite be identified or defined - a history or complex of underachievement and disappointment. an expectation of failure and defeat. The number of times we are in a position to win a game, defend a lead or push on as a club and we dont grasp it is mind boggling.

It may just be a case of just going out to get a "Roy Keane" type but this feels a bit reductive of a bigger issue. Hopefully it is something that will change now we have a manager who has actually won things. The last manager we had with a track record of success as a manager was probably DiMatteo - and that was a one off and hardly all his doing. Maybe it is a genuine culture of winning and knowing how to win that we need. We may have some excellent players - but successful ones? There a many excellent footballers in the world who can do anything they want with the ball - but are they winners?, do they have that x-factor that drives them to see a job out and win at any cost?

I see the same issue - albeit on a different scale - with Chelsea at the moment. A bunch of excellent new young players but do they know how to win games? Time will tell with both teams but it is hella frustrating lol

I think Man U is another example, until a manager like Ten Hag with his personality, galvanises what was already an array of talent......He has developed a competitive edge to what was an already talented side.

Brentford have developed a similar edge under Thomas Frank, and Brighton are resolute too, despite losing their revered manager.....Fulham are also an example, of a team who have ditched their soft underbelly, for a team up for the fight.

Many teams have transformed themselves, from an easy touch, to hard to play against.

Paul Merson, in his match prediction on Saturday plumped for a 0-2 win for Arsenal, based on his assumption, we would try and play more expansive than Everton, and in his view, would play in to Arsenals Hands.

We are neither one thing or the other at present, and we have been like that under 3 managers........3 managers have brought players in, and the team looks like that.

There is no doubt, we can play some delightful football at times, but we can't control games or dominate the ball, the inabilty to contain teams on the whole, leaves us constantly in transition, that takes a lot of energy.

It seems, to take the lead, is of little advantage to us, where as our contempories, make it hard for teams to get back in......Our specious style, has us unpredictable and inconsistent, to the point that most fans now, are only waiting for us to concede after leading.

I suspect only personnel changes will rectify this, my worry is......will we be aware enough to buy the right players to do it.

We are saying the same things about this summer as we was last summer, and that is NOT a slight on this manager........The board have to back him, and not sit on their hands like last Summer.

I have no doubt in my mind UE knows whats wrong.....but fixing it, he needs help.

Edited February 21, 2023 by TRO

[TRO]

1 hour ago, PaulC said:

If martinez view was blocked surely he would have been the first to complain. Emery never made that an excuse for losing. It seems that's its only on here that people have an issue with it.

 

I think that is a fair comment......Ironically if he hadn't of dived, it might not have gone in.

not criticising him for that obviously, just looking at the irony.

 

[TRO]

19 hours ago, markavfc40 said:

They did. Only one of two teams in the league, along with Man Utd, to have beaten Arsenal at home all season. As I said a bit of perspective is needed as we were up against an excellent side who are top of the league and who have an excellent away record.

On the balance of play Arsenal just about deserved to win but we performed well enough that I still came away disappointed that we didn't take anything, and of course a little aggrieved that in the end the deciding factor was an off side goal that should have been ruled out.

I am with the manager, and his view.....I was angry at the consistent way, we relinquish leads, and invite teams on to us.....Everton showed us that a less open way of playing Arsenal, worked...but despite our 2 superb goals, we went toe to toe, and we haven't got the personnel for that.

I am well aware of the standard of opposition, but the same scenario's rear their ugly heads against lower opposition,too,  like Stevenage and Wolves, as just a couple of examples, amongst more.

I am also with many of the podcasters, who see an inate problem with this current crop....whose frustration at clinging to positives are proving to be testing for them.

[OutByEaster?]

21 hours ago, TRO said:

Everton Managed it.....too many buts, Mark.....we are in danger of finding an excuse, for every reversal....sure in boxing terms we was out pointed, and in snooker terms we need to learn how to play safe, pure potting won't win trophies.

I think the manager, is clear what the issues are, getting them to do it, is easier said than done

I am totally with the manager.....and he wasn't happy at all.

I can see why some folk, were happy with it, but maybe they can't see as readily why some folk wasn't.

It's interesting that the manager seems to have suggested that he wasn't happy that we tried to play it too safe - that we withdrew into a shell and invited Arsenal onto us rather than continue our own plan and way of playing and try to control things better with the ball. he was advocating less safety in a way, more potting, or at least a different kind of safety - I think he appreciates that sometimes the best way to defend well is to defend less. 

Whichever, we need to find the right way to stop conceding goals - and we seem capable of finding a number of ways to concede them at the moment; individual error, a lack of control over games, refereeing blight and some good luck on behalf of our opponent - I think that's a storm that we've been a little unlucky with, but I think we need to find ways to manufacture some of our own luck and keep teams away from our goal.

I think we need to show the confidence to continue to play, to continue to control the ball, even when we're ahead or under pressure and from Emery's post match interviews, I think that was his largest disappointment.

 

[PaulC]

27 minutes ago, TRO said:

I am with the manager, and his view.....I was angry at the consistent way, we relinquish leads, and invite teams on to us.....Everton showed us that a less open way of playing Arsenal, worked...but despite our 2 superb goals, we went toe to toe, and we haven't got the personnel for that.

I am well aware of the standard of opposition, but the same scenario's rear their ugly heads against lower opposition,too,  like Stevenage and Wolves, as just a couple of examples, amongst more.

I am also with many of the podcasters, who see an inate problem with this current crop....whose frustration at clinging to positives are proving to be testing for them.

Its all the more frustrating because they are good players that can play delightful football. Our second goal was a thing of beauty. Theres no point just blaming the officials we need to make our own luck. 

[danceoftheshamen]

4 hours ago, PaulC said:

If martinez view was blocked surely he would have been the first to complain. Emery never made that an excuse for losing. It seems that's its only on here that people have an issue with it.

 

Yes because we had a goal disallowed for the exact same thing at..... Arsenal! Except on that day we only had one player "in the keepers eye line" (Which he was actually nowhere near). So which one is it? One of them is clearly a dodgy decision whatever way you look at it. Then add into that fact that this happens almost every time you play one of these teams. If you look at each individual one you can squirm around it and find a reason why they made a decision but what you cannot explain is why then do 95% of those go in favour of the same teams?! 

Just to add that at my work place last night everyone including Man U, Forest, Liverpool, Derby & Leicester fans, many of whom are season ticket holders at their various clubs, were all coming up to me, shaking their heads and laughing saying "Yes I saw it, it was shocking" & words to that effect. So it definately isn't just some posters on here by any stretch. In actual fact not one of them didn't think it should have been called offside. The general feeling was that it was the FA balancing out the goal Brentford scored against them last week. 

 

Edited February 21, 2023 by danceoftheshamen

[TRO]

2 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

It's interesting that the manager seems to have suggested that he wasn't happy that we tried to play it too safe - that we withdrew into a shell and invited Arsenal onto us rather than continue our own plan and way of playing and try to control things better with the ball. he was advocating less safety in a way, more potting, or at least a different kind of safety - I think he appreciates that sometimes the best way to defend well is to defend less. 

Whichever, we need to find the right way to stop conceding goals - and we seem capable of finding a number of ways to concede them at the moment; individual error, a lack of control over games, refereeing blight and some good luck on behalf of our opponent - I think that's a storm that we've been a little unlucky with, but I think we need to find ways to manufacture some of our own luck and keep teams away from our goal.

I think we need to show the confidence to continue to play, to continue to control the ball, even when we're ahead or under pressure and from Emery's post match interviews, I think that was his largest disappointment.

 

I didn't interpret his comments like you did.....defending well, is not the same as retreating....we retreated.

There are times we need to contain the opposition or deny them time and space on the ball, we didn't do that in the latter stages, we retreated, like we do so often.

We seem to be constantly in a flux of transition, its hard to gain control, playing like that....you are right, we make many errors, many from set pieces too, but opponents are not afraid to get amongst us, like Saka, for the gift of a header from Mings.

but these traits, we have settled on, will take some shifting, and it is the architect of our benevolent football.

We can dress it up any way we like, but this is happening, way too often.....and whether we agree or not, there is a tangible reason for it.

To keep opponents away from our goal, requires, a way of playing and I don't think, just setting out to out score teams like them, is fanciful.....when a more conservative, smash and grab, is a much more feasible, approach.

We all have our opinons, which way is right, and while I accept the best form of defence is attack, you have to be ready to defend when you lose the ball, and that does not mean its just the back 4/5 the whole team have to do their bit and get after the ball.

We lose the ball way too often, and that was another gripe for the manager, but we also have to have dedicated players who can win it back, sadly they are in short supply at B6.

[TRO]

17 hours ago, PaulC said:

Its all the more frustrating because they are good players that can play delightful football. Our second goal was a thing of beauty. Theres no point just blaming the officials we need to make our own luck. 

The thing is Paul, we are very good at some things and not so good at others......and the things we are good at, much of the squad is too.....that leaves us short, on the things we are not so good at....and we have a shortage of them.

In other words, in terms of individual attributes, all very samey......who is our ****house to bring on, when we need some muscle, to get after opponents and disrupt their rhythm... a game is not all pretty passes, I wish it was so simple as that....as delightful as it is.

If we go down the road of blaming officials, as galling as they are, we just end up feeling sorry for ourselves and that is precisely what we don't want to add to.

Edited February 22, 2023 by TRO

[TRO]

11 minutes ago, TRO said:

I didn't interpret his comments like you did.....defending well, is not the same as retreating....we retreated.

There are times we need to contain the opposition or deny them time and space on the ball, we didn't do that in the latter stages, we retreated, like we do so often.

We seem to be constantly in a flux of transition, its hard to gain control, playing like that....you are right, we make many errors, many from set pieces too, but opponents are not afraid to get amongst us, like Saka, for the gift of a header from Mings.

but these traits, we have settled on, will take some shifting, and it is the architect of our benevolent football.

We can dress it up any way we like, but this is happening, way too often.....and whether we agree or not, there is a tangible reason for it.

To keep opponents away from our goal, requires, a way of playing and I don't think, just setting out to out score teams like them, is fanciful.....when a more conservative, smash and grab, is a much more feasible, approach.

We all have our opinons, which way is right, and while I accept the best form of defence is attack, you have to be ready to defend when you lose the ball, and that does not mean its just the back 4/5 the whole team have to do their bit and get after the ball.

We lose the ball way too often, and that was another gripe for the manager, but we also have to have dedicated players who can win it back, sadly they are in short supply at B6.

Ps You seen for yourself, what happens when you win the ball, like Matty Cash did, or when Dewsbury-Hall did against us.....Winning the ball , paradoxically creates goals, .......Phil was the player with the most Tackles on Saturday, thats great for him, but not so great for the rest of the team.

[Zatman]

6 hours ago, PaulC said:

If martinez view was blocked surely he would have been the first to complain. Emery never made that an excuse for losing. It seems that's its only on here that people have an issue with it.

 

Facts are an excuse?