How many points does Gerrard need to keep his job?

[hippo]

5 hours ago, ThunderPower_14 said:

Possibly, I absolutely loved Smith, but the owners had obviously decided that they didn't think he could take us further. 

Gerrard might not be that man either, but you have to at least give him 1 summer to implement his vision. Take solace in the fact that we know the owners won't give him forever if he doesn't push us forward next year. 

To me though Gerrard's vision looks a radical departure from the path the club has been on since NSWE arrived.

If (and it's a big if I accept) Gerrard's proposals include bringing in older players on big contracts - buying players to suit a niche formation , I think it reasonable bet that someone at club says 'hold on a minute this isn't what we're about'  - and Stevie G has his plans reigned in - how he feels and reacts about that who knows.

All IMO of course.

 

 

[tinker]

If we lose to Leicester and Norwich then his position is seriously at risk. Football is brutal. He needs a minimum of 1 point in the next 2 games. 

More than our performances on the pitch the loss of interest in us from our fans is a real show of success or lack of it. Even Villatalk seems quiet. 

[IrishVilla10]

8 minutes ago, hippo said:

To me though Gerrard's vision looks a radical departure from the path the club has been on since NSWE arrived.

If (and it's a big if I accept) Gerrard's proposals include bringing in older players on big contracts - buying players to suit a niche formation , I think it reasonable bet that someone at club says 'hold on a minute this isn't what we're about'  - and Stevie G has his plans reigned in - how he feels and reacts about that who knows.

All IMO of course.

 

 

I think were maybe 3 signings, 2 midfielders and a striker away from this team going up a level. We have a really young squad. I don’t think three signings aged 27/30 really upsets the balance too much. I don’t think it’s changing the strategy I think it’s recognising we’ve built a really good foundation but need some quality to take it to the next level. I think we could see maybe 5 signings in summer, a few experienced players and a few younger. 

[hippo]

9 minutes ago, tinker said:

If we lose to Leicester and Norwich then his position is seriously at risk. Football is brutal. He needs a minimum of 1 point in the next 2 games. 

More than our performances on the pitch the loss of interest in us from our fans is a real show of success or lack of it. Even Villatalk seems quiet. 

I think he will gain enough points to retain his job - just.

The crunch for me is how much the board are taken in by a very different approach to running the club by a guy with only nominal experience. 

Imo the results between now and the end of the season are only part of the decision.

[hippo]

16 minutes ago, tinker said:

If we lose to Leicester and Norwich then his position is seriously at risk. Football is brutal. He needs a minimum of 1 point in the next 2 games. 

More than our performances on the pitch the loss of interest in us from our fans is a real show of success or lack of it. Even Villatalk seems quiet. 

Must admit that is a concern.

With soaring energy bills - a price hike in season tickets and an air of resignation around VP it's a perfect storm.

[Condimentalist]

3 hours ago, tinker said:

If we lose to Leicester and Norwich then his position is seriously at risk. Football is brutal. He needs a minimum of 1 point in the next 2 games. 

More than our performances on the pitch the loss of interest in us from our fans is a real show of success or lack of it. Even Villatalk seems quiet. 

I think if we lose both his position is untenable. Six defeats on the row culminating with a home defeat to Norwich, managed by the ex manager, it would become mutinous.

Fwiw I don't think that will happen. I expect us to beat a poor Norwich team and get a point at Leicester who are playing a lot of matches at present and focusing on Europe.

Given the fixtures I think it's more likely we have a fairly strong end to the season and head into the summer with some reasonable optimism than lose the next two, but if we do there would have to be a change IMO. 

[FLVillan]

I actually don't think Gerrard is making a radical change in terms of the types of players he wants.  He's tweaked the style by playing without traditional wingers - and let's face it, none of our current wingers (ElGhazi, Trez, Bert) have done enough to convince me they'd be good enough at another level anyway.  His signings are in line with what Smith was talking about last summer - those with some proven premier league experience.  The only player over 30 in the squad is Young, who is on a short term deal.  What he has changed, which makes perfect sense, is that he wants the reserve side to be playing the same system as the first team, regardless of results.  It's no use having a reserve team playing whichever way they want and then bringing players through who aren't ready for the style/system.  He has also not been afraid to blood some youngsters and send others on decent loans to ensure they're playing regularly instead of sitting on the bench.  Once we were out of both cups it made no sense to keep the likes of Archer, Davis etc around for the odd five minutes. 

[hippo]

4 hours ago, FLVillan said:

I actually don't think Gerrard is making a radical change in terms of the types of players he wants.  He's tweaked the style by playing without traditional wingers - and let's face it, none of our current wingers (ElGhazi, Trez, Bert) have done enough to convince me they'd be good enough at another level anyway.  His signings are in line with what Smith was talking about last summer - those with some proven premier league experience.  The only player over 30 in the squad is Young, who is on a short term deal.  What he has changed, which makes perfect sense, is that he wants the reserve side to be playing the same system as the first team, regardless of results.  It's no use having a reserve team playing whichever way they want and then bringing players through who aren't ready for the style/system.  He has also not been afraid to blood some youngsters and send others on decent loans to ensure they're playing regularly instead of sitting on the bench.  Once we were out of both cups it made no sense to keep the likes of Archer, Davis etc around for the odd five minutes. 

Has he ?

Blood youngsters - who ? (Im not counting 10 meaningless minutes here and there)

He hasn't yet made any changes to the reserve team formation (he may in the summer as even more worryingly he seeks to overhaul the U23 set up,).

In his 3 years at Rangers not single youth player stepped up. I don't expect to happen next season either.

 

[VillaChris]

Given we've still got Liverpool and Man. City left the reality is we're heading for a bottom 6 finish now.

Brighton capable of results we're not and are 4 clear of us and Brentford one of most inform teams in the league.

In no way imo is a 15th or even 16th place finish acceptable given where we were after Leeds away and who we signed in January.

I'm not saying hound him out of the club as we have had good results under him in spells but worrying to me how stale and flat things have become under his management already and in most situations you don't tend to give managers 100m + to spend if the vibe isn't great so that's my concern.

[Dale]

9 hours ago, tinker said:

If we lose to Leicester and Norwich then his position is seriously at risk

It's basically b untenable at that point. 

[will87]

With the players he's got at his disposal we're on course for a criminally low points total imo. If we don't hit 40 he's getting the boot, I would have thought that's fairly obvious, after that I don't know, 45 might be enough.

[TomC]

On 13/04/2022 at 03:54, Demitri_C said:

My biggest concern with him is his record against the better sides. Yes they are better but smith still pulled some wins off against the better sides,  plop, arsenal chelsea, spurs.

Gerrards lost to them all.

Deano beat them last year...but this year, we've lost every match against the top 8 under both managers, except Man U (win under Deano, draw under SG). Their record is not much different this year.

 

1 hour ago, VillaChris said:

In no way imo is a 15th or even 16th place finish acceptable given where we were after Leeds away and who we signed in January.

A 15th or 16th place finish would be utterly disappointing and would mean SG did no more with these players than Deano did over the first 11 matches. That still doesn't answer the question whether the problem is the players (the constant) or the managers (both of them). Only after SG gets a chance with a different group of players will we know which is the problem

 

[hippo]

4 minutes ago, TomC said:

Deano beat them last year...but this year, we've lost every match against the top 8 under both managers, except Man U (win under Deano, draw under SG). Their record is not much different this year.

 

A 15th or 16th place finish would be utterly disappointing and would mean SG did no more with these players than Deano did over the first 11 matches. That still doesn't answer the question whether the problem is the players (the constant) or the managers (both of them). Only after SG gets a chance with a different group of players will we know which is the problem

 

Problem is then it's too late - we will have spent a huge amount of money with decisions made by a guy we then realise wasn't up to it.

.......who follows that ....?

[VillaChris]

2 hours ago, TomC said:

Deano beat them last year...but this year, we've lost every match against the top 8 under both managers, except Man U (win under Deano, draw under SG). Their record is not much different this year.

 

A 15th or 16th place finish would be utterly disappointing and would mean SG did no more with these players than Deano did over the first 11 matches. That still doesn't answer the question whether the problem is the players (the constant) or the managers (both of them). Only after SG gets a chance with a different group of players will we know which is the problem

 

I keep hearing this but ultimately he decided to ditch Targett for Digne (many on this forum dislike that but I'm o.k with it), Coutinho come in and started every game since his debut and he could've easily kept faith with Chambers but decided to bring Konsa back. So already he's signed 3 out of 10 for outfield positions.

How many more players are we going to change? We've tied Emi and Cash down to long term deals so they're obviously starting in their respective positions next season unless in terrible form. He loves McGinn and Ramsey so feels like both will still be starting majority of games next season and I'd say Mings is fairly secure in his position. So while we obviously need a DM and probably another striker I don't foresee wholesale changes in other positions, rest we'll bring in will be more bench players which makes sense given 5 subs will be a thing so some of them will get regular gametime.

I'd rather he'd have got a bit more out of likes of Bailey and Traore so far but given the rigid formation we're playing there's no clear pathway for either into the starting 11.

[Davkaus]

We were 14th in mid Jan, when we signed Coutinho and Digne. And we're 14th again. 

I can't imagine for a moment we made those signings in January with the expectation "well, we'll stay about where we are now".

[VillaChris]

1 minute ago, Davkaus said:

We were 14th in mid Jan, when we signed Coutinho and Digne. And we're 14th again. 

I can't imagine for a moment we made those signings in January with the expectation "well, we'll stay about where we are now".

And we were only as low as 14th as we lost the Burnley and Leeds game due to covid over xmas.

Perhaps we wouldn't have won at Leeds if we'd played them in December but add 3 points to our tally in mid Jan and I imagine we'd have been top half or very close to it.

Have to say the last few weeks have disappointed me massively.

Lost at West Ham. Fair enough they're doing well again but that was a few days after they'd played away to Sevilla. Brentford beat them comfortably last week in similar fashion.

Were very passive for 70 minutes v Arsenal. People afterwards were saying Arsenal were too good to get anything against...since then they've lost three straight games to teams below us in the table before they won v Arsenal.

Were terrible first half v Wolves and lost. Wolves lost to Leeds and Newcastle either side of beating us.

Lost to Spurs comfortably. That's the only real mitigation as they have been in good form and we did play really well first half but just couldn't score. Ultimately though Brighton did a superb job of shutting down their front players today.

It's a big concern to me under Gerrard we seem to have real limitations playing anyone above us in the league and I'm not convinced he has enough about him to correct this over the summer even if he signs 2-3 good players. He did in the summer yet it's made little difference so far v top half teams so that's worrying to me.

[VillaParkAvenue]

It’s obvious what he must do to win the Villa fans over. Take points off Liverpool in the middle of their title race. And look happy about it.

[TomC]

3 hours ago, hippo said:

Problem is then it's too late - we will have spent a huge amount of money with decisions made by a guy we then realise wasn't up to it.

And if you bring in another manager tomorrow, and he signs his players, and it turns out he wasn't up to it, you'll also be in a bad position. I don't know of any sure-thing manager out there at the moment. It's a risk either way. Before we throw away money to buy out SG, before NSWE get the reputation for being a new Deadly Doug, it makes sense to stick with the risk you've already taken for another year. You can't say with sufficient certainty that SG is the problem as opposed to the players.

1 hour ago, VillaChris said:

I keep hearing this but ultimately he decided to ditch Targett for Digne (many on this forum dislike that but I'm o.k with it), Coutinho come in and started every game since his debut and he could've easily kept faith with Chambers but decided to bring Konsa back. So already he's signed 3 out of 10 for outfield positions.

How many more players are we going to change?

In essence, he's changed two players; I don't think that SG or anyone else at the club intended Chambers to start, even if you can make an argument that he should.

Is there anyone on this board who thinks that we're going to make the top 6 (or even top eight) with a midfield of McGinn-Dougie-JJ, or even with Naka or Sanson in for any of those three? I haven't heard anyone. We may disagree about whether the problem is talent level, tactics, chemistry, or lack of rotation, we may disagree about which players are subpar, but this board is almost unanimous that something has to change, no matter who is the manager in August. SG was a pretty damn good midfielder. I think that he has the know-how to get it sorted out, and deserves one summer window to get it sorted out. (Let's face it, the winter window never has as many opportunities.)

I also think people are pretty set in their positions at this point, and everyone is just repeating themselves. I have my reasons, the anti-SG brigade has its reasons, the club management has its reasons...and the latter is the only one that matters. Maybe some people on here are hoping to stir up enough discontent to put pressure on the club, but given the poll results here and the hardening of positions, I don't think that's going to happen unless we lose seven more in a row...and I don't think that will happen, either.

 

Edited April 16, 2022 by TomC
Fixed accidental emoji, changed "seven" to "seven more"

[hippo]

6 minutes ago, TomC said:

And if you bring in another manager tomorrow, and he signs his players, and it turns out he wasn't up to it, you'll also be in a bad position. I don't know of any sure-thing manager out there at the moment. It's a risk either way. Before we throw away money to buy out SG, before NSWE get the reputation for being a new Deadly Doug, it makes sense to stick with the risk you've already taken for another year. You can't say with sufficient certainty that SG is the problem as opposed to the players.

In essence, he's changed two players; I don't think that SG or anyone else at the club intended Chambers to start, even if you can make an argument that he should.

Is there anyone on this board who thinks that we're going to make the top 6 (or even top eight) with a midfield of McGinn-Dougie-JJ, or even with Naka or Sanson in for any of those three? I haven't heard anyone. We may disagree about whether the problem is talent level, tactics, chemistry, or lack of rotation, we may disagree about which players are subpar, but this board is almost unanimous that something has to change, no matter who is the manager in August. SG was a pretty damn good midfielder. I think that he has the know-how to get it sorted out, and deserves one summer window to get it sorted out. (Let's face it, the winter window never has as many opportunities.)

I also think people are pretty set in their positions at this point, and everyone is just repeating themselves. I have my reasons, the anti-SG brigade has its reasons, the club management has its reasons...and the latter is the only one that matters. Maybe some people on here are hoping to stir up enough discontent to put pressure on the club, but given the poll results here and the hardening of positions, I don't think that's going to happen unless we lose seven more in a row...and I don't think that will happen, either.

 

Agree -although I don't think what we post on here alters club policy.

Stevie G knew he wasn't popular on appointment - I would assume Purslow was aware of this. For whatever reasons they went ahead.

As it stands he starts next season - 2:things could alter that.

1.exceptionally poor results in the final few games 

2.Gerrards blueprint is drastically different to what he proposed in November.

 

 

 

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

33 minutes ago, VillaParkAvenue said:

It’s obvious what he must do to win the Villa fans over. Take points off Liverpool in the middle of their title race. And look happy about it.

To be fair, he's outstanding at this.