Summer Transfer Window 2022

[allani]

48 minutes ago, Jas10 said:

Not sure about this “number 8” talk… I suppose it depends on what the definition of that kind of player is…

Imo, the last thing we need is another player in the mould of Ramsey, McGinn and Sanson… unless we’re selling one or two of them…unlikely…

We need a different type, maybe a hybrid 6/8… someone like Sangare would fit the bill and SG has stated that Kamara can play as a 6 or an 8… Luiz is the best partner we have for him now and makes us better in possession but he lacks physicality… it’s one of the main things we have been missing for so long and is why we struggle so often in that midfield “scrap”. But, we must retain and control possession better more than anything. Having both McGinn and JJ in the side really hinders us in that respect, we only need one “action” CM in the side. And we have a wealth of attacking talent in front of midfield which can reduce the attacking responsibility of midfield and allow them to be more solid and focus on build up play.

We need to stop being wasteful and stop losing possession so cheaply.

I just strongly feel that we need a composed and solid base in midfield that is defensively strong and excellent in possession. That would unleash our attacking talent and allow them to fully express themselves… that way we could get both Coutinho (overall our best attacking player, esp in terms of scoring) and Buendia (our most creative player, best passer) in the side and give the CF a much better and more consistent supply of genuine goals scoring opportunities….

There would be no need for these players to drop deeper or search for the ball games if we address that midfield balance correctly…

Maybe chance creation is more of a problem than being clinical… harder for the CF to be sharp, focussed and clinical if he only gets the very occasional and possibly more difficult chance in a game… a more consistent and higher quality supply ins only going to help…

Absolutely agree.  We need a 6/8 - someone who can defend & tackle back, but who is also comfortable with the ball (especially under the press) and is a proficient passer.  This is not the same as an McGinn or JJ.  Luiz has some of the qualities - but not all of them.  But with two of Kamara, new CM, Doug and Tim we would be starting to look pretty well covered.  This releases JJ / McGinn to focus more on pressing higher up the pitch and supporting the front 3. 

[TRO]

6 minutes ago, Jas10 said:

I don’t think you “have to” play with a double pivot or 2 behind a more attacking player if you have more than one defensive player in midfield. Like I said, there are players that are capable of playing a hybrid role nowadays and SG described Kamara in that way too. Or the player we sign can fulfil that role and BK can be the most defensive or deepest. If you want, you can still have the flat 3.

As I explained earlier, if we have a stronger and more defensively capable midfield (that is also composed and excels in possession/passing), it allows our attackers to perform better and not have to drop deep. 

By “action” midfielder, I meant players that are more attacking and less capable defensively. Players that prioritise getting forward and taking risks (like losing the ball) rather than being composed, protect defence and prioritise keeping hold of the ball and not losing it cheaply.

I’d rather our attackers take this risks and for our midfield to apply them with quality and consistent service. Because of the make up of our squad.

Good post.....I get it.

Our creators will take risks, by definition and they will lose the ball as a result......we need players who can win it back and re-feed them.

All too often last season we lost the ball through legitimately trying to create.. only to find ourselves defending our own goal, after a few passage of play.

That has to cease, if we have ambitious intent.

[allani]

38 minutes ago, TRO said:

In Terms of strikers.....we're being linked with players of an an inferior goal record to what we already have.

We need to be careful, here.

I don't think that goal record is the only thing to be assessing.  Part of it also has to be whether they are better suited to the style of football we want to play.  If they are scoring fewer goals but playing in a team that is geared towards hammering the ball up field to a target man then it is a bit pointless to look at their goal record.  For me it is more important that they are good on the ball, have excellent vision, have good acceleration to burst through gaps and latch onto through balls, etc.  My issue with Ollie is less about his goal scoring and more about the fact that he doesn't bring the best out of those around him and isn't suited to playing in front of the likes of Couts and Emi2.

[skarroki]

Only 13 players at 8 clubs (who all finished above us) scored more goals than Watkins did last season. He's hit double figures in his first two seasons for the club and offers a lot more than goals as well. I really don't want him replaced and I find it strange so many do.

Nearly all of the players that scored more than Watkins weren't strikers either. What we needed was Buendia and Bailey to hit the ground running and instead we only got flashes of Buendia and about 25 minutes out of Bailey. Teams that do well don't have a 20 goal striker, those teams win leagues they don't finish 7th. We need 3-4 players to be close to 10 goals and I think we've got 3-4 players in the squad capable of that. 

[mikeyp102]

Personally I think we were in the market for a couple more players, but we’ve not been able to do the deals at perceived value. Added to the form of Archer, Irogbebum and even Feeney during pre season and we’ve decided to wait until contracts  run down a bit (after the WC/January) to look to see how we’re going and what’s available then. 
With that in mind, I could see is getting an experienced head in on loan 

[allani]

Just now, skarroki said:

Only 13 players at 8 clubs (who all finished above us) scored more goals than Watkins did last season. He's hit double figures in his first two seasons for the club and offers a lot more than goals as well. I really don't want him replaced and I find it strange so many do.

Nearly all of the players that scored more than Watkins weren't strikers either. What we needed was Buendia and Bailey to hit the ground running and instead we only got flashes of Buendia and about 25 minutes out of Bailey. Teams that do well don't have a 20 goal striker, those teams win leagues they don't finish 7th. We need 3-4 players to be close to 10 goals and I think we've got 3-4 players in the squad capable of that. 

Check out how many more players had more goal contributions than Ollie.  Of the 25 top goalscorers last season - he was 23rd in terms of goal contributions.  That is the problem.  He scored 11 but only got 2 assists.  He has no vision and plays with his head down the whole time.  This means he doesn't turn enough possession into chances for himself or chances for others.

[TRO]

11 minutes ago, bobzy said:

I think a lot of people want to push Luiz up the pitch alongside Ramsey whilst having "more possession".  My gut feeling is that this would lead to more passes backwards into Kamara (thankfully, he seems to be a very good passer of the ball) rather than forward into Buendia/Coutinho/the channels.  Luiz's effectiveness in possession is the short ball - which was very often backwards to defence or more sideways into Ramsey/McGinn who then progressed.

Now obviously Luiz could play further forward - and, again, I don't believe that a professional footballer couldn't learn to do different roles - but he doesn't have the same forward-focus as the others.  He'd be more 'useful' in a double pivot with Kamara but then we'd need to have Buendia playing and dropping back quite a bit to give a better link in the void between holding mids and attack (as only 1 guy there).

In some ways, nice problems to have.  But we do need to have a defined system.

I still think we are searching for complete midfielders and we only have limited ones.

so you end up with fans looking at somethings and not at others, hence to the discrepancy in opinon......all our midfielders are good at somethings and not so good at others.....hence we are midtable.

I sometimes think our midfield looks a bit samey.....that is not saying they are bad players....but it may mean some jobs are not being done effectively.....I think that can be levelled at the front 2 too....not enough variation.

Edited July 27, 2022 by TRO

[TRO]

10 hours ago, allani said:

I don't think that goal record is the only thing to be assessing.  Part of it also has to be whether they are better suited to the style of football we want to play.  If they are scoring fewer goals but playing in a team that is geared towards hammering the ball up field to a target man then it is a bit pointless to look at their goal record.  For me it is more important that they are good on the ball, have excellent vision, have good acceleration to burst through gaps and latch onto through balls, etc.  My issue with Ollie is less about his goal scoring and more about the fact that he doesn't bring the best out of those around him and isn't suited to playing in front of the likes of Couts and Emi2.

I agree totally.

but goal scoring circumnavigates so much other detail.

e.g....when we are scoring so many other aspects of the game get ignored/dismissed.

When a hard working fully functional front man, dries up in terms of goals.....The rest of his game starts to wane, and his confidence dissipates.

but, I accept your point fully...

I have a suspicion, our front 2 lack a bit of aggression....I don't mean, kicking opponents.....I mean with themselves to finish.

Gray and Withe had that mean streak.....They believed they would score every game they played.....I don't see that mind set, in our 2.

I honestly don't think ours are that bad......just that mentality shift, would make a difference.

Edited July 27, 2022 by TRO

[IrishVilla10]

36 minutes ago, bobzy said:

I think we massively overplay our midfield difficulties - which, in large part, came down to Luiz not being effective enough in the DM role.  We've brought in Kamara to alleviate this.

Anything else, I think we have a good enough selection of players to choose from.  Naturally, if we can shift someone out and bring a better player in then I think we'd take that approach.

We’ll still have the same difficulty  having kamara play DM if Mcginn and JJ are both playing alongside him. JJ likes to run at the defence, Mcginn likes to play long balls. Neither keep the ball or pass it enough for it to be successful imo. I’d be happy if we don’t sign another midfielder if Luiz gets the chance to play with Kamara, but if McGinn continues as first choice we’re going nowhere 

[TRO]

5 minutes ago, IrishVilla10 said:

We’ll still have the same difficulty  having kamara play DM if Mcginn and JJ are both playing alongside him. JJ likes to run at the defence, Mcginn likes to play long balls. Neither keep the ball or pass it enough for it to be successful imo. I’d be happy if we don’t sign another midfielder if Luiz gets the chance to play with Kamara, but if McGinn continues as first choice we’re going nowhere 

I love the persona of McGinn, wouldn't want him to leave.....but he loses possession too easily, and while he is a meatball, he lacks athleticism and elasticity....a bit wooden imo.

Edited July 27, 2022 by TRO

[TRO]

31 minutes ago, skarroki said:

Only 13 players at 8 clubs (who all finished above us) scored more goals than Watkins did last season. He's hit double figures in his first two seasons for the club and offers a lot more than goals as well. I really don't want him replaced and I find it strange so many do.

Nearly all of the players that scored more than Watkins weren't strikers either. What we needed was Buendia and Bailey to hit the ground running and instead we only got flashes of Buendia and about 25 minutes out of Bailey. Teams that do well don't have a 20 goal striker, those teams win leagues they don't finish 7th. We need 3-4 players to be close to 10 goals and I think we've got 3-4 players in the squad capable of that. 

I think Ollie and Danny should be hovering around 15 goals.

I agree.....somethings are not quite right....but they are not as bad as is being suggested....when our creators lose the ball, they are not getting it back quick enough.....we need a player up there getting it back for them and recycling.

The strikers are not able to apply enough sustained pressure, to capitalise, in to more goals.

20 goal strikers are the exception as opposed to the rule.

Edited July 27, 2022 by TRO

[burchy]

For me the jury is out on Luiz as an 8, perhaps that’s why, like some of you have already suggested, we’re holding off giving him a new contract. Perhaps, depending on how things go in the first few games this will change, either we sign him up or sell him on. 

I think personally Ramsey is a starter ahead of McGinn but they are both fighting for that one spot in midfield and should be rotated a bit to stop burn out and to keep sharp.

The new CM needs to be someone combative but decent on the ball to challenge Luiz but also give us the option of playing them alongside Luiz and Kamara if needed against tougher midfields. We can then bring Ramsey or McGinn on late on. 

I’d still like to see some cover come in though as I think Sanson will leave and obviously Chuk is off. 

Keep the same numbers but up the quality levels and add a bit of variety to our CMs at the same time. 

I’d send A Ramsey and IrnBru out on loan too. 

[villan501]

For me mcginn cannot be part of the first eleven if possession based is the way we go, he has terrible passing and keeping the ball cpnsistently giving the ball away.

 

Gerrard looks to be heading towards possession based something we clearly have lacked.

 

I think kamara needs another DM next to him so Sangare could be a great shout but my overall view is if we play 2 infront of defence they must be able to break up play pass and move ball forward.

 

Sangare signing or sanson is my pick to partner kamara.

[allani]

18 minutes ago, TRO said:

I agree totally.

but goal scoring circumnavigates so much other detail.

e.g....when we are scoring so many other aspects of the game get ignored/dismissed.

When a hard working fully functional front man, dries up in terms of goals.....The rest of his game starts to wane, and his confidence dissipates.

but, I accept you point fully...

I have a suspicion, our front 2 lack a bit of aggression....I don't mean, kicking opponents.....I mean with themselves to finish.

Gray and Withe had that mean streak.....They believed they would score every game they played.....I don't see that mind set, in our 2.

I honestly don't think ours are that bad......just that mentality shift, would make a difference.

Agreed.  I was mainly playing Devil's Advocat anyway.  But I guess my point is that goals scored previously is less important than goals scored going forwards.  I think a player who is more in tune with our style of play may have scored fewer goals last season (in a team not playing to their strengths) would probably be more likely to score more next season than our current two (as we probably are heading further away from their strengths).  In my opinion neither Ollie nor Ings are good enough strikers to build our style of play around.  So if they don't fit then either we keep trying to flog a dead horse in the hope that actually said horse was just in a deep sleep or we cut our losses and try and find someone better suited.

That said if we get another CM - then I wouldn't be totally against giving Ollie / Ings another few months to see if they can adjust.  It probably means that we'd be aiming more at 8th / 9th rather than 7th / 8th or even hoping that we (i.e. that group of teams at the table of the mid-table can suck one or more of the Sly 6 into that battle).  But that would be a big jump forwards in one season.

[Zatman]

1 hour ago, Jas10 said:

Sure… but there have been some massive failures too  
I struggle to forget Alfonso Alves

It’s often the case and why you need good scouting… hard to predict who will thrive and who will falter…

There have been some bargains/stars and duds from the likes of SPL too…

Southgate biggest signing

[Bazmonkey]

48 minutes ago, TRO said:

I love the persona of McGinn, wouldn't want him to leave.....but he loses possession too easily, and while he is a meatball, he lacks athleticism and elasticity....a bit wooden imo.

I agree he does give the ball away to easily at times but I think that's down to the way he plays.

We have a big problem with midfield and I think mcginn trying to play that killer pass all.the time does lemd to turning the ball over.

Having said that...we do have a lot of players that are one dimensional...im amazed in todays football midfielders can't do two roles...attack and defend...like the food old days of 442.

Anyway...we play three in the middle....ive said numerous times...its a number thing...Luiz sits 5 yards in front of back four..even in back four at times...so there's one player gone...the other could be on the other side of the pitch...so that pass now becomes difficult in its own right.

I think a better stacked midfield with better MOVEMENT....Will dramatically cut those Hollywood passes out he and other make and our ball retention better 

[TomC]

1 hour ago, allani said:

Check out how many more players had more goal contributions than Ollie.  Of the 25 top goalscorers last season - he was 23rd in terms of goal contributions.  That is the problem.  He scored 11 but only got 2 assists.  He has no vision and plays with his head down the whole time.  This means he doesn't turn enough possession into chances for himself or chances for others.

Agreed. How many times did he shoot or just plain lose the ball last year when he should have passed? Strikers should be confident and a little selfish, but he was over the line. This is one way in which Ings is far better.

 

[RicRic]

2 hours ago, Jas10 said:

Not sure about this “number 8” talk… I suppose it depends on what the definition of that kind of player is…

Imo, the last thing we need is another player in the mould of Ramsey, McGinn and Sanson… unless we’re selling one or two of them…unlikely…

We need a different type, maybe a hybrid 6/8… someone like Sangare would fit the bill and SG has stated that Kamara can play as a 6 or an 8… Luiz is the best partner we have for him now and makes us better in possession but he lacks physicality… it’s one of the main things we have been missing for so long and is why we struggle so often in that midfield “scrap”. But, we must retain and control possession better more than anything. Having both McGinn and JJ in the side really hinders us in that respect, we only need one “action” CM in the side. And we have a wealth of attacking talent in front of midfield which can reduce the attacking responsibility of midfield and allow them to be more solid and focus on build up play.

We need to stop being wasteful and stop losing possession so cheaply.

I just strongly feel that we need a composed and solid base in midfield that is defensively strong and excellent in possession. That would unleash our attacking talent and allow them to fully express themselves… that way we could get both Coutinho (overall our best attacking player, esp in terms of scoring) and Buendia (our most creative player, best passer) in the side and give the CF a much better and more consistent supply of genuine goals scoring opportunities….

There would be no need for these players to drop deeper or search for the ball games if we address that midfield balance correctly…

Maybe chance creation is more of a problem than being clinical… harder for the CF to be sharp, focussed and clinical if he only gets the very occasional and possibly more difficult chance in a game… a more consistent and higher quality supply ins only going to help…

I do respect this and it allowed me to think about the set up in this way , well explained and i can see that all in motion with the players you mentioned.. i am more keen to go with two 8’s rather than two 6’s however but i am open to that idea, meaning it could potentially look like the set up just below

                      Sangare     Kamara

                                Ramsey

i would probably prefer this though

                            Kamara

                De Paul        Ramsey

 

im still yet to know how good sangare actually is tbh, i would be more content to go with the way you want us to set up if we had a more clinical forward, but we dont have that so we need more advancement on the pitch. 

[Rustibrooks]

2 hours ago, villa89 said:

Strange that all of the "brilliant" players we have like davis, Sanson, traore, el ghazi haven't been sold yet. Maybe they just aren't very good after all. 

Interesting that you've said that. I've been working with a few guys in the last 2 weeks on a project who are from Germany and Portugal, they are all football fans and a few days ago we had a convo about transfers. I was saying without sounding spoilt, I was getting bored of the window cause we've done our business early and I have a feeling we are trying to sell our fringe players to trim our bloated squad. They mentioned that 3 years or so ago a lot of teams in Europe would've happily bought players that didn't do well in the prem for a decent fee, but because of TV deals falling through, the pandemic and a few other things a lot of teams outside of the Prem really struggle to sign anyone that is not really cheap or on loan. So teams in the premier league could potentially continue to have bloated squads due to finding it hard to shift the fringe players to European teams.

I got a feeling this is has been affecting us a lot with our business, players like El Ghazi we aren't going to get a decent fee for (or i highly doubt we will) so we're either going to have to wait for a few of these guys to either produce something while they are on loan or let them go for free at the end of their contract.

[RicRic]

1 hour ago, burchy said:

For me the jury is out on Luiz as an 8, perhaps that’s why, like some of you have already suggested, we’re holding off giving him a new contract. Perhaps, depending on how things go in the first few games this will change, either we sign him up or sell him on. 

I think personally Ramsey is a starter ahead of McGinn but they are both fighting for that one spot in midfield and should be rotated a bit to stop burn out and to keep sharp.

The new CM needs to be someone combative but decent on the ball to challenge Luiz but also give us the option of playing them alongside Luiz and Kamara if needed against tougher midfields. We can then bring Ramsey or McGinn on late on. 

I’d still like to see some cover come in though as I think Sanson will leave and obviously Chuk is off. 

Keep the same numbers but up the quality levels and add a bit of variety to our CMs at the same time. 

I’d send A Ramsey and IrnBru out on loan too. 

Theyre not fighting for one spot but they should do come the start of the season if the right changes are made