Panto_Villan Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 1 minute ago, Follyfoot said: Do her up the wrong un Aha. It all makes sense now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjw63 Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 15 minutes ago, Panto_Villan said: What does "DHUTWU" actually mean? I can take an educated guess as to what the first four letters mean (assuming the first one is "Do") but I've never been able to figure out the whole acronym. I struggle to believe someone doesn't know what this means, I think it should be a forum secret for n00bs now 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Panto_Villan Posted January 12, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted January 12, 2022 Just now, rjw63 said: I struggle to believe someone doesn't know what this means, I think it should be a forum secret for n00bs now The saying round here tends to swap in the words "back passage" or something to that effect, so I genuinely couldn't figure it out. My standard tactic in these cases is just to Google it, but the only results that come up if you try that is the "Interests" section of your VT profile 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PerryBarrPet Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 On 10/01/2022 at 18:05, KentVillan said: Okay, explain. You think it's sensible to hire someone who's in the middle of a court case for sexual assault because he hasn't yet been found guilty / not guilty? Or let's look at another example. The Northern Ireland rugby players who were found not guilty of raping a woman - Paddy Jackson, etc. Do you think their clubs and sponsors were wrong to take the action they did subsequently? I'm not saying Bissouma has done anything as serious as this, but you can see that the standards of a criminal court are not the same as the standards we apply in daily life. If this gobsmacks you, then explain? Pedantic comment but there is no court case right now as far as I am aware. Police are certainly investigating so Villa should tread carefully. No reason why the player’s solicitor cannot provide Villa with detail on where the investigation is at present. Other reports in this thread state that two men are under caution - the player and a man about 40 yrs old. The player is on unconditional bail while the older man has conditions on his bail. This may suggest that the case against the older man is far stronger but we, in a remote position, cannot make a judgement. I understand what you mean by ‘standards we apply in daily life’ but for me it is wrong to ‘apply standards’ until all facts are known. As far as NI rugby players are concerned then this case is at a completely different level: charged, taken to court, found not guilty so is no exemplar. The player has not even been charged yet so I think you are premature in ‘applying’ your standards. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KentVillan Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 (edited) 12 minutes ago, PerryBarrPet said: Pedantic comment but there is no court case right now as far as I am aware. Police are certainly investigating so Villa should tread carefully. No reason why the player’s solicitor cannot provide Villa with detail on where the investigation is at present. Other reports in this thread state that two men are under caution - the player and a man about 40 yrs old. The player is on unconditional bail while the older man has conditions on his bail. This may suggest that the case against the older man is far stronger but we, in a remote position, cannot make a judgement. I understand what you mean by ‘standards we apply in daily life’ but for me it is wrong to ‘apply standards’ until all facts are known. As far as NI rugby players are concerned then this case is at a completely different level: charged, taken to court, found not guilty so is no exemplar. The player has not even been charged yet so I think you are premature in ‘applying’ your standards. Ok, swap "court case" for "ongoing police investigation". My point is simply: He is currently under investigation by the police for a criminal offence While this is happening, it is sensible for us to take this into consideration when deciding whether or not to buy him - we have no obligation (legal or moral) to act as if the investigation doesn't exist If the investigation is dropped, then of course the facts of the matter change But if, when doing our due diligence on a player, a trusted reference comes back and says, "Not sure about this guy's character, yes he got off here, but it's not the first time he's got in trouble [etc]" then we have no obligation to apply the standards of a criminal court. Because as I said, we're just making a decision on whether to buy a footballer, not on whether to lock him up and take away his liberties. That's just sensible transfer due diligence. That's what I meant by saying, you go on the balance of probabilities (i.e. how much do I trust my sources and the information they've given me?), not on whether a jury found him guilty or not. Ultimately you're trying to protect yourselves from something similar happening again. I'm not at all saying that I think Bissouma is guilty *because* the police are investigating an unproven allegation. I was getting into two separate discussions which got mixed up. One is should we sign him (not right now IMO, because there's an ongoing police investigation - but of course that could change). The other discussion was whether all that matters re a player's reputation is their criminal record (no - see the Paddy Jackson story, found not guilty by jury, but career destroyed by the various facts which emerged around that case). Edited January 12, 2022 by KentVillan 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panto_Villan Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 (edited) 12 minutes ago, PerryBarrPet said: Pedantic comment but there is no court case right now as far as I am aware. Police are certainly investigating so Villa should tread carefully. No reason why the player’s solicitor cannot provide Villa with detail on where the investigation is at present. Other reports in this thread state that two men are under caution - the player and a man about 40 yrs old. The player is on unconditional bail while the older man has conditions on his bail. This may suggest that the case against the older man is far stronger but we, in a remote position, cannot make a judgement. I understand what you mean by ‘standards we apply in daily life’ but for me it is wrong to ‘apply standards’ until all facts are known. As far as NI rugby players are concerned then this case is at a completely different level: charged, taken to court, found not guilty so is no exemplar. The player has not even been charged yet so I think you are premature in ‘applying’ your standards. True, but you've also got to consider the financial risk aspect of it - he's a £40-£50m asset that would instantly stop playing for us and lose all resale value if he were charged and convicted of a sexual offence, and there's certainly a chance of that happening. So unless the club are confident that won't happen, it's worth careful consideration. Edited January 12, 2022 by Panto_Villan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 Even if Bissouma is cleared and his friend is charged then I would still stay away. It would show the type of character he associates with and we should be doing more than just background checks on the player Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viloon Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 Biossouma is a smokescreen, announce Renato Sanches! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DakotaVilla Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 3 minutes ago, Zatman said: Even if Bissouma is cleared and his friend is charged then I would still stay away. It would show the type of character he associates with and we should be doing more than just background checks on the player So are you defined by the actions of all of your friends and associates? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 8 minutes ago, Panto_Villan said: True, but you've also got to consider the financial risk aspect of it - he's a £40-£50m asset that would instantly stop playing for us and lose all resale value if he were charged and convicted of a sexual offence, and there's certainly a chance of that happening. So unless the club are confident that won't happen, it's worth careful consideration. I would think Christian purslow is sufficiently Savvy to have factored all those caveats in. £40-50 mill is a hell of a lot of money to take unnecessary risks with.....I don't think he will do that. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa89 Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 8 minutes ago, Viloon said: announce Renato Sanches! No thanks. Already failed in the league once. He's a player that's good at a certain level. If we signed him he'd be a flop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HalfTimePost Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 16 minutes ago, Zatman said: Even if Bissouma is cleared and his friend is charged then I would still stay away. It would show the type of character he associates with and we should be doing more than just background checks on the player I'd always have doubts hanging over me that he'd tried to pay her off, failed and paid his mate very handsomely to take the fall of it was announced it was the other one. That would be incredibly unfair of me, I know. I feel a little bad admitting it... But realistically I know that a little part of me would be cynical and assume his mate took the fall and we'd signed a sexual offender. Hopefully it comes out as a massive misunderstanding and charges are dropped. But the length of the investigation so far doesn't feel as though that's the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveAV1 Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 18 minutes ago, DakotaVilla said: So are you defined by the actions of all of your friends and associates? I feel for my friends. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick76 Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 2 minutes ago, HalfTimePost said: I'd always have doubts hanging over me that he'd tried to pay her off, failed and paid his mate very handsomely to take the fall of it was announced it was the other one. That would be incredibly unfair of me, I know. I feel a little bad admitting it... But realistically I know that a little part of me would be cynical and assume his mate took the fall and we'd signed a sexual offender. Mate, that’s really bad! 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick76 Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 1 minute ago, DaveAV1 said: I feel for my friends. Pardon the pun! 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HalfTimePost Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 That said. Whilst I very much doubt any club has the inside track on an investigation, it would be quite easy to discover whether it is indeed Bissouma who is the central focus of an investigation or whether he is merely a witness to a friend who's potentially committed a crime. Would initially be held as a potential suspect (particularly when in a low lit area like a club) but if he wasn't the main focus of the investigation, lawyers and due diligence would reveal that. If he is a lead suspect or person of interest still, there isn't much chance that any clubs have an inside track on it. And even if money changes hands I doubt a lawyer would get involved in Employment conversations when the fees are £50m+ and put themselves at risk professionally or legally. Getting 'in' with footballers and the industry could be massive for them and wouldn't want to be on the wrong end of bad advice if they weren't sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick76 Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 24 minutes ago, Zatman said: Even if Bissouma is cleared and his friend is charged then I would still stay away. It would show the type of character he associates with and we should be doing more than just background checks on the player So do you not rate him as a player because this view is incredibly unfair, it’s the only conclusion I can take. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PerryBarrPet Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 16 minutes ago, KentVillan said: Ok, swap "court case" for "ongoing police investigation". My point is simply: He is currently under investigation by the police for a criminal offence While this is happening, it is sensible for us to take this into consideration when deciding whether or not to buy him - we have no obligation (legal or moral) to act as if the investigation doesn't exist If the investigation is dropped, then of course the facts of the matter change But if, when doing our due diligence on a player, a trusted reference comes back and says, "Not sure about this guy's character, yes he got off here, but it's not the first time he's got in trouble [etc]" then we have no obligation to apply the standards of a criminal court. Because as I said, we're just making a decision on whether to buy a footballer, not on whether to lock him up and take away his liberties. That's just sensible transfer due diligence. That's what I meant by saying, you go on the balance of probabilities (i.e. how much do I trust my sources and the information they've given me?), not on whether a jury found him guilty or not. Ultimately you're trying to protect yourselves from something similar happening again. I'm not at all saying that I think Bissouma is guilty *because* the police are investigating an unproven allegation. I was getting into two separate discussions which got mixed up. One is should we sign him (not right now IMO, because there's an ongoing police investigation - but of course that could change). The other discussion was whether all that matters re a player's reputation is their criminal record (no - see the Paddy Jackson story, found not guilty by jury, but career destroyed by the various facts which emerged around that case). I agree with the general points you are making. The three bullet points are clear. On the issue of due diligence then any sensible business - football or not - will go through this whether buying an expensive asset or recruiting a senior employee. Past employment history, criminal record etc. should all be researched irrespective of any current Police investigation. I presume that Villa’s management is competent so will be doing this anyway. We do not know but much of this may well have been done and Villa are now awaiting the results of the current investigation. I have no information on this player but so far have heard no reference to previous offences. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 Just now, nick76 said: So do you not rate him as a player because this view is incredibly unfair, it’s the only conclusion I can take. How is it unfair? If I am spending 50 million on a player then I would be worried who he is hanging out with. Has been many occasions that people have got in trouble for being in the wrong company Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveAV1 Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 48 minutes ago, rjw63 said: I struggle to believe someone doesn't know what this means, I think it should be a forum secret for n00bs now I was going to Google it but I couldn’t be arsed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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