Steven Gerrard

[Peter Griffin]

We all laugh at Watford for sacking managers too quickly and not giving them a chance to prove their worth and work with the team. SG has only had 20 games with Villa. 20 games is naff all. I don't know if SG will turn out to be the right manager or not but it would be insanity to sack him without giving him time to prove himself unless we are under threat of relegation. Thinking Villa is under threat of relegation this season just highlights the bias from people posting it. 

[VillaParkAvenue]

I didn’t think we were that great in Gerrard’s first few games even though we won some of them, we were set up to defend and not much else, had 30% possession against Palace and others.

But in that three game winning run recently, and against Spurs, we’ve shown signs of quality. If it wasn’t for those games, I’d want Gerrard out immediately.

[El Zen]

I am in absolutely no rush to sack a newly appointed manager, and am prepared to give the man time to make the team his and adjust the squad more in tune with his requirements. 

I am, however, far from convinced so far, and a poor start to next season would probably test my patience. 

[STO]

I remain utterly unconvinced by him, bit I am keen to see what sort of summer he produces and how we shape up next season.  We have really obvious flaws and I'm keen to see if he identifies them and is the  quality that Purslow thinks he's getting.

[VillaFaninLondon]

26 minutes ago, TRO said:

I think you answer your own questions and still can't see it.....sure right now, we are all frustrated and peed off....but, just a few pointers to ponder.

• Those teams ( Brentford, Palace, Brighton, Newcastle) are not bad teams, lets get that clear.
• Would Howe have saved Newcastle with the same players, left by Bruce.
• Our season has not finished yet, and we are in a bad rut.
• The last game (Spurs) we didn't deserve to lose like that from an offensive point of view....from a defensive point of view, in view of our actions, we did.
• We are in a Dull place right now, we all agree on that, but to keep speculating if Gerrard does this or Gerrard does that, he will be gone, is not helping anything.
• If we keep defending like we do, we won't win another game this season....I feel sure about that....because we can't outscore our defensive inefficiences.
• Watch carefully the both games against Spurs from a defensive point of view ( Brighton and Villa) and tell me what observations you make....tell me what differences you see, (apart from the 3-5-2) for Brighton, relating to the play.
• There is nothing to suggest a top manager, would have been in a different position, with the same team SG has inherited.....Why did Unai Emery and Carlos Anchelloti, not do better, with Arsenal and Everton, if that has credence, they are top managers.....they are doing alright now, with different players and different teams.
• The disappointment is getting the better of some of us, and distorting our views accordingly.....Watch the games back and see the incidents that lead to conceding goals, sometimes you can only take the horse to the water, you can't make it drink.

I think, without the introduction of the players Eddie Howe has brought in, blended and is getting effective performances from....They could easily have gone down....Do I it think he would have done it without the investment, No ,I don't.

Managers can only do so much....why is Sean Dyche, suddenly no good?

I also think Dean got the balance wrong too, despite being a generally good manager, and it cost him his job, IMO

For what its worth, I am not sure Lucas Digne was the right signing either....but maybe time will tell, if SG just stole the moment for his future building plans......but right now, its made us defensively worse..IMO

 

 

To answer some points:

• If not bad then average at best, Newcastle were rock bottom with Norwich for half the season and it's a scandal they're above us, Palace bought half a new team last summer, Brentford got promoted through the playoffs. If we finish below any of them this season something has gone horribly wrong
• Newcastle's team that beat Leicester yesterday on paper was barely better than anything Bruce had - Wood in for Wilson (injured) is a downgrade, Targett has improved them but was our backup LB and not performing when he did play, Burn was Brighton's third best CB. Only Guimaraes has vastly improved the quality of their team. Tripper made a huge difference when he came in but he's been out for months
• Of course you'll deserve to lose a game if you gift the opposition goals, like we seem to do every week, we're the most generous team in the league when giving soft goals away, but our XG was higher than Spurs and the scoreline was ridiculous
• Managers who lose every week or every other week will be under fire, it's part and parcel of a football manager, the one thing I was expecting Gerrard to do was make us harder to beat than under Smith, that clearly hasn't happened as he's lost 11 of the 21 games he's managed
• You mention Ancelotti - Everton were miles better last season than this, in contention for Europe and even top 4 until the last few weeks of last season, so not sure what your argument is - he was a top manager and both Rafa and Lampard have been huge downgrades

 

I know you're desperate for Gerrard to succeed, but we have to think very carefully about giving him unconditional backing regardless of results and performances. He's performed no better than our last manager and many of us at that time knew something needed to change. Of course we can't just keep changing manager every 6 months but that's why we should have gone all out for a proven one at the time instead of taking a massive punt on Gerrard. 

[Peter Griffin]

17 minutes ago, VillaFaninLondon said:

To answer some points:

• If not bad then average at best, Newcastle were rock bottom with Norwich for half the season and it's a scandal they're above us, Palace bought half a new team last summer, Brentford got promoted through the playoffs. If we finish below any of them this season something has gone horribly wrong
• Newcastle's team that beat Leicester yesterday on paper was barely better than anything Bruce had - Wood in for Wilson (injured) is a downgrade, Targett has improved them but was our backup LB and not performing when he did play, Burn was Brighton's third best CB. Only Guimaraes has vastly improved the quality of their team. Tripper made a huge difference when he came in but he's been out for months
• Of course you'll deserve to lose a game if you gift the opposition goals, like we seem to do every week, we're the most generous team in the league when giving soft goals away, but our XG was higher than Spurs and the scoreline was ridiculous
• Managers who lose every week or every other week will be under fire, it's part and parcel of a football manager, the one thing I was expecting Gerrard to do was make us harder to beat than under Smith, that clearly hasn't happened as he's lost 11 of the 21 games he's managed
• You mention Ancelotti - Everton were miles better last season than this, in contention for Europe and even top 4 until the last few weeks of last season, so not sure what your argument is - he was a top manager and both Rafa and Lampard have been huge downgrades

 

I know you're desperate for Gerrard to succeed, but we have to think very carefully about giving him unconditional backing regardless of results and performances. He's performed no better than our last manager and many of us at that time knew something needed to change. Of course we can't just keep changing manager every 6 months but that's why we should have gone all out for a proven one at the time instead of taking a massive punt on Gerrard. 

I agree with most of what u are saying I think he or any manager needs the unconditional support during the summer window. If they don't have continued belief in SG and want to curtail his influence and his transfer window then they should sack him. We should have a manager with unconditional support or we should replace him.

[TRO]

1 hour ago, VillaFaninLondon said:

To answer some points:

• If not bad then average at best, Newcastle were rock bottom with Norwich for half the season and it's a scandal they're above us, Palace bought half a new team last summer, Brentford got promoted through the playoffs. If we finish below any of them this season something has gone horribly wrong
• Newcastle's team that beat Leicester yesterday on paper was barely better than anything Bruce had - Wood in for Wilson (injured) is a downgrade, Targett has improved them but was our backup LB and not performing when he did play, Burn was Brighton's third best CB. Only Guimaraes has vastly improved the quality of their team. Tripper made a huge difference when he came in but he's been out for months
• Of course you'll deserve to lose a game if you gift the opposition goals, like we seem to do every week, we're the most generous team in the league when giving soft goals away, but our XG was higher than Spurs and the scoreline was ridiculous
• Managers who lose every week or every other week will be under fire, it's part and parcel of a football manager, the one thing I was expecting Gerrard to do was make us harder to beat than under Smith, that clearly hasn't happened as he's lost 11 of the 21 games he's managed
• You mention Ancelotti - Everton were miles better last season than this, in contention for Europe and even top 4 until the last few weeks of last season, so not sure what your argument is - he was a top manager and both Rafa and Lampard have been huge downgrades

 

I know you're desperate for Gerrard to succeed, but we have to think very carefully about giving him unconditional backing regardless of results and performances. He's performed no better than our last manager and many of us at that time knew something needed to change. Of course we can't just keep changing manager every 6 months but that's why we should have gone all out for a proven one at the time instead of taking a massive punt on Gerrard. 

Who doesn't, want him to succeed, only Hippo.

• Something has gone wrong, the balance of the team is wrong and the recruitment in recent seasons has not addressed it....and right now there seems no way out.
• Newcastle have bought in area's they needed to and it has worked.....it was much better than anything Bruce had.....5 decent players have come in, but more importantly, in exactly the positions they needed them, thats the significant bit....its more than Guimares that has improved Newcastle, Burn has been a significant improvement.....Wood is a different player to Wilson and has added hold up play to their team...they have become harder to beat and he and Burn have added to that.
• Carlo Ancellotti had a win ratio at Everton of 46%, only his first club out of 11 was he ever worse, his current ratio is 72 %.....yes, players do matter.....I think Ancellotti is world class, but won 31 games in 67 at Everton...but players don't matter, do they? Ironically Everton, Leeds and Villa all bunched together last season and this season the same, just further down the league.
• Losing games will catch up with any manager, and our has lost too many, but lets see what he does with his own constructed team....and players who can execute, what he wants.... He needs more time than this.
• You seem to make gifting goals a slight inconvenience.....It has destroyed the confidence in the team, it has affected the form of players, who don't defend as their prime task too.....its a disease.

[AVFCGB]

I always want every Villa Manager to succeed, even McLeish, because  I want my club challenging for everything.  However we know some appointments will have a greater chance than others.  I genuinely thought Lambert could take us places, alas he was out of his depth.  This one is going to end with Gerrard at Plop or Tranmere, probably more likely to be England if he fails here.  I really don’t think he’s shown enough, but I thought that after Brian Little’s first half a season in charge.

[sharkyvilla]

Weren't we one clean sheet away from equalling our PL record last year?  The system where the full backs play so far up and 2 central midfielders covering them inevitably will leave the defensive midfielder and in turn the centre halves exposed no matter who they are.  Yes our players are capable of gifting goals at the best of times but leaving them so exposed all the time is pretty suicidal.  Sending the team out like that every week is pretty amateurish.  Ironically while Ings and Watkins haven't gelled going forward, I feel at least a bit more comfortably defensively as they both work really hard to close down high up the pitch.

[Davkaus]

2 minutes ago, sharkyvilla said:

Weren't we one clean sheet away from equalling our PL record last year?  The system where the full backs play so far up and 2 central midfielders covering them inevitably will leave the defensive midfielder and in turn the centre halves exposed no matter who they are.  Yes our players are capable of gifting goals at the best of times but leaving them so exposed all the time is pretty suicidal.  Sending the team out like that every week is pretty amateurish.  Ironically while Ings and Watkins haven't gelled going forward, I feel at least a bit more comfortably defensively as they both work really hard to close down high up the pitch.

An extra 4 goal contributions from Matty Cash this season, though 

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

1 hour ago, VillaFaninLondon said:

Well we think they're not good enough because of their performances this season and playing in a system that doesn't suit them, but if we had the Bailey and Buendia from last season we'd be a much better team. 

 

Put it this way, if we sold those 2 player I'm pretty sure they would become top quality players elsewhere. 

Buendia has had his best performances for us, under Gerrard?

Granted, he's since dropped him as well, so it's a difficult one.

Was only months ago people were writing him off and calling him a waste of space and 40 mill or whatever etc though.

But yeah, we need to find a system to ustilise the best of what we've got.

Edited April 18, 2022 by JAMAICAN-VILLAN

[TRO]

2 minutes ago, sharkyvilla said:

Weren't we one clean sheet away from equalling our PL record last year?  The system where the full backs play so far up and 2 central midfielders covering them inevitably will leave the defensive midfielder and in turn the centre halves exposed no matter who they are.  Yes our players are capable of gifting goals at the best of times but leaving them so exposed all the time is pretty suicidal.  Sending the team out like that every week is pretty amateurish.  Ironically while Ings and Watkins haven't gelled going forward, I feel at least a bit more comfortably defensively as they both work really hard to close down high up the pitch.

And we have conceded 46 goals, after 31 games.....the same as at the seasons end, last season.

I have no idea, why he chooses to play with wing backs as opposed to Full Backs, other than the start of something, he wants to transform the team in to.....but right now, you are right, its a step back, until we can get defensive savvy players in to midfield....and that hopefully is for next season.

I don't see Ings or Watkins showing any Authority, in holding the ball up, so put all that in the mix and we are Wide open..

I also don't see any of our permutations of wingers, keeping the ball either, to any extent....so all in all, its a bit of a hotchpotch.

[Chindie]

Gerrard should be on thin ice. A manager can't just come in and say 'my team plays this way and we will play this way regardless of the fortunes of the team and we will completely overhaul the side to make it work'. The manager has to adapt to his tool box to get the best result. 

Gerrard doesn't, really. He's switched to a 2 striker system, which hasn't been a roaring success but is utilising the squad in a way he doesn't really want to. But he will not shift on the thing that undoes us, the fullbacks being heavily attacking, despite us not having elite level fullbacks or a midfield that can support that system. He has a squad that has a focus on wide forwards/wingers and tidy midfielders, which, yes is unbalanced and clearly still being built, but he just rejects wingers and sticks with the same midfield with the same tactics every week that isn't working.

I'm not terribly impressed. When it clicks it's decent. But it's very all or nothing - we turn up or we don't. And it really does feel like he needs a very specific set of players to play the way he wants to, and there's no guarantee even then it'll work. And he evidently has a first choice XI and everyone else. And I really haven't seen much to feel confident that this is the home to chuck money at. 

I want him to succeed, because he's Villa manager. And on paper I like the way he wants us to play. But I'm not convinced it'll work, and I'm not convinced he's s good enough manager to do anything else when it doesn't. Kicking a rocket to the arse of the team at half time they other week isn't the hallmark of a good manager in the making IMO.

[TRO]

23 minutes ago, Chindie said:

Gerrard should be on thin ice. A manager can't just come in and say 'my team plays this way and we will play this way regardless of the fortunes of the team and we will completely overhaul the side to make it work'. The manager has to adapt to his tool box to get the best result. 

Gerrard doesn't, really. He's switched to a 2 striker system, which hasn't been a roaring success but is utilising the squad in a way he doesn't really want to. But he will not shift on the thing that undoes us, the fullbacks being heavily attacking, despite us not having elite level fullbacks or a midfield that can support that system. He has a squad that has a focus on wide forwards/wingers and tidy midfielders, which, yes is unbalanced and clearly still being built, but he just rejects wingers and sticks with the same midfield with the same tactics every week that isn't working.

I'm not terribly impressed. When it clicks it's decent. But it's very all or nothing - we turn up or we don't. And it really does feel like he needs a very specific set of players to play the way he wants to, and there's no guarantee even then it'll work. And he evidently has a first choice XI and everyone else. And I really haven't seen much to feel confident that this is the home to chuck money at. 

I want him to succeed, because he's Villa manager. And on paper I like the way he wants us to play. But I'm not convinced it'll work, and I'm not convinced he's s good enough manager to do anything else when it doesn't. Kicking a rocket to the arse of the team at half time they other week isn't the hallmark of a good manager in the making IMO.

Well, I'm sure constantly losing wasn't part of the plan...but I think a difficult season taking over a third of the way through was.

I am convinced he will make it.....but your observations are worthwhile and feasible.

I have been convinced for some time of a flaw/ imbalance in this squad and its still there and i don't see a change under any manager, until its remedied....and I don't think it can just be managed away.

He is yet, to get the results in a pattern to settle everyone down and I get that.

I think against certain teams we have done well and against others we have struggled, that has been the case under 2 managers, with essentially the same team....I think the answer lies in the make up of this squad/team.I think I know why he/ him is/was struggling, but hey ho....I could be wrong.

However, that's just for folks opinions to decide.

but lets just do a "what if"...alternative.

What if the board just sacked him after the next defeat.....what do you think the reaction would be, from all quarters?....and where would it leave the club going forward?

Burnley, have just made a pretty surprising sacking, to most......so what if we did the same?

9 years v 19 games....so what?

 

Edited April 18, 2022 by TRO

[VillaFaninLondon]

2 hours ago, TRO said:

Who doesn't, want him to succeed, only Hippo.

• Something has gone wrong, the balance of the team is wrong and the recruitment in recent seasons has not addressed it....and right now there seems no way out.
• Newcastle have bought in area's they needed to and it has worked.....it was much better than anything Bruce had.....5 decent players have come in, but more importantly, in exactly the positions they needed them, thats the significant bit....its more than Guimares that has improved Newcastle, Burn has been a significant improvement.....Wood is a different player to Wilson and has added hold up play to their team...they have become harder to beat and he and Burn have added to that.
• Carlo Ancellotti had a win ratio at Everton of 46%, only his first club out of 11 was he ever worse, his current ratio is 72 %.....yes, players do matter.....I think Ancellotti is world class, but won 31 games in 67 at Everton...but players don't matter, do they? Ironically Everton, Leeds and Villa all bunched together last season and this season the same, just further down the league.
• Losing games will catch up with any manager, and our has lost too many, but lets see what he does with his own constructed team....and players who can execute, what he wants.... He needs more time than this.
• You seem to make gifting goals a slight inconvenience.....It has destroyed the confidence in the team, it has affected the form of players, who don't defend as their prime task too.....its a disease.

I want all Villa managers to succeed too, there is no agenda against Gerrard, but I don't think the antipathy towards him is misplaced. We should be getting better under his stewardship not worse - yes most of these are not his players but managers at other clubs who have gone in this season do not seem to be having the same issues. 

 

I am intrigued to see what happens over the last 7 games. We can pretty much write off Liverpool and City, but the other 5 games are winnable. Leicester is the hardest of them but I will be absolutely livid if we roll over and give away more poor goals. I want to see something change either in the formation/personnel or tactically (or both) that makes us both more defensively sound and consequently harder to beat, whilst freeing up our attack. If it means playing in a way that was similar to when he first took charge so be it. 

 

If I see no evidence that he can adapt to get better results in these last few games then I really don't see the point in giving him a massive sum of money in the summer and would rather we look for someone new to give those funds to. 

[Villa_Vids]

2 hours ago, Chindie said:

Gerrard should be on thin ice. A manager can't just come in and say 'my team plays this way and we will play this way regardless of the fortunes of the team and we will completely overhaul the side to make it work'. The manager has to adapt to his tool box to get the best result. 

Gerrard doesn't, really. He's switched to a 2 striker system, which hasn't been a roaring success but is utilising the squad in a way he doesn't really want to. But he will not shift on the thing that undoes us, the fullbacks being heavily attacking, despite us not having elite level fullbacks or a midfield that can support that system. He has a squad that has a focus on wide forwards/wingers and tidy midfielders, which, yes is unbalanced and clearly still being built, but he just rejects wingers and sticks with the same midfield with the same tactics every week that isn't working.

I'm not terribly impressed. When it clicks it's decent. But it's very all or nothing - we turn up or we don't. And it really does feel like he needs a very specific set of players to play the way he wants to, and there's no guarantee even then it'll work. And he evidently has a first choice XI and everyone else. And I really haven't seen much to feel confident that this is the home to chuck money at. 

I want him to succeed, because he's Villa manager. And on paper I like the way he wants us to play. But I'm not convinced it'll work, and I'm not convinced he's s good enough manager to do anything else when it doesn't. Kicking a rocket to the arse of the team at half time they other week isn't the hallmark of a good manager in the making IMO.

I am not fully convinced that our problem is with playing advanced full backs, we have produced good attacking play with this set-up (albeit inconsistent).  That is a work in progress imo. I think the main issue is the defensive side of our system and the mentality we have in games. We just roll over and die a lot of the time. We are too easy to play through because we currently lack running power, aggression and concentration that you need to be a top side. I think Gerrard sees this and I agree with him.

I believe SG has inherited an imbalanced squad of players too - which Lange and Smith have to take some responsibility for. it is now on Gerrard to find the solutions and build this new mentality with support from the board.  Players have to step up or move on. Similarly, we are in the same territory we were in when MON began to alter the mentality of O'Leary's squad, we need the same kind of transition here again. This will be the true test of his managerial ability. 

Edited April 18, 2022 by Villa_Vids

[Peter Griffin]

2 hours ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

But yeah, we need to find a system to ustilise the best of what we've got.

This is a question I ask myself quite a lot. Do we really want to find a system to utilise the players we have or should we be putting in place the system we want from a footballing strategy perspective and getting the players to play to that system and if they can't then replacing them. Let's say SG wants to play system 'A' and he is forcing the players to play to that system as long term we believe system A will get us top 4 and Europe if we stick to our principles. However, we don't have the players to play system And our players would be better suited to system B but we know system B will not bring us long term success albeit it may have us getting some better results this season as the players are better suited to it. 

There is a merit in the argument to stick with system A and ship out the players that don't fit and bring in ones that do. Over time we will develop into a team that is good at playing system A. But if we look for the short term gain to suit the players we have that could stop us ever getting the system in place that we believe is correct. Could this be what is happening at Villa?

Edited April 18, 2022 by Peter Griffin
Fixed a typo

[Peter Griffin]

2 hours ago, Chindie said:

Gerrard should be on thin ice. A manager can't just come in and say 'my team plays this way and we will play this way regardless of the fortunes of the team and we will completely overhaul the side to make it work'. The manager has to adapt to his tool box to get the best result. 

 

Why can't he? How do you know that this wasn't agreed at the interview stage? 

[Tommo_b]

7 hours ago, Davkaus said:

For a less tired argument, does pineapple belong on a pizza?

Absolutely not.

[Xela]

21 hours ago, Zatman said:

If we stick with this manager we could easily be in a relegation battle next season while building a squad for a system that will need to be ripped up by a replacement 

No evidence to support that at all. 

Since Gerrard took over, we are 11th in the league table since that point. Not wonderful, but not relegation candidates by any means.