Steven Gerrard

[KMitch]

20 minutes ago, TRO said:

The system where wingers was used, bore no fruit either, under a different manager....its going round and round in circles, blaming systems, exclusively.

All the wingers were injured or battling their way back to fitness from injury at the start of the season...  Traore & Bailey have lived in the treatment room this season, Buendia was not fit to start the season, and "Iron Horse" Watkins missed his first games for us due to injury...  We were forced to play Young and El Ghazi on the wings at the start of the season, and even with that kind of service, Ings was banging them in.  They're all available for selection now plus Coutinho...  Smith at least had an excuse as to why it didn't work...  Gerrard has no excuses, especially when you're asking your CBs to bomb forward on the wing in possession.  Watch Wolves' first goal again yesterday.  When McGinn slips, Konsa is almost standing on the right touchline in the opposition's half and Mings is the only one behind McGinn on the pitch.  This is 100% on Gerrard's poor tactical instruction and not the "system".  Doesn't matter who we buy or what "system" we play, if he is asking the players to do stupid stuff like this.  

Edited April 4, 2022 by KMitch
Engrish

[Mark Albrighton]

I’m about as ambivalent as it’s possible to be regarding Gerrard.

In his defence I think we’re close(ish) to reaching the stage when making that leap up to being one of the better, more consistent sides. That leap is going to have to be across a fairly big chasm. I think most managers would struggle with that.

A lot of these players are midtable quality, a fair few of which could play for clubs higher up in more of a squad rotation role. I think their league position is about right, maybe a smidgen below what it should be.

If we’re going down the more experienced, “proven winners” route in the summer window, fine. But then that means the remit has changed, as the players are experienced winners, the results need to follow suit. Because these players are likely going to come at a premium.

No learning on job, no adjusting to top flight football, minimal time getting used to the system. As he would have presumably have brought them in to play this system.

Also, I’m not quite sure when it’s possible to say it’s “his team”. It’s not now, obviously.  But if we spend £100m on two midfielders but he’s still selecting McGinn as part of the three, is that “his midfield”? Or is going to be “well he hasn’t had chance to replace McGinn yet…”?

[sne]

Most managers these days don't get to have "their team". Either for lack of funds at the club or not getting results good enough to be given 3-4 seasons.

Most of our players are likely mid-table PL quality. Remains to be seen if Gerrard is mid-table quality as a manager or if he's better than that. Or worse.

[AntrimBlack]

I want him to be successful with us, as I would with any manager, but I do have a worry that he could spend big, fail, and leave the club to pick up the expensive pieces.

[TRO]

9 minutes ago, blandy said:

Yep, I felt it was a risky appointment when it was made, still do. Not convinced at all. We are all making assumptions and speculating, because we don't know, any of us. I agree he will have a view from his time here of the weaknesses of the team, but I suspect (from reading this board) that they are not the same as those of a lot of supporters. I also agree that getting the squad he wants is not quick, cheap or easy.

The whole point I made about managers like Potter or Dyche, is that they have an understanding of what it's like to be a player the manager thinks neds to do better, because they were themselves "average" - Gerrard can never have that. Managers from the past, the best ones, almost none were top international type players - Ferguson, Morinho, Graham Taylor, Big Fat Ron...they have the edge because they didn't have the natural gifts of the likes of Gerrard, Lampard, Bobby Charlton, Alan Ball...(there are exceptions, but often the best players don't make the best managers).

Consistently inconsistent!

The game and the world has changed since then. The type of beastings given out by Saunders, just don't work 40 years later. Players are much wealthier, much more cushioned, much more sensitive (in a good way) emotionally - they grew up in a different era, the game is faster, more skilful, more technical, cleaner, with better facilities and better analysis and coaching. It's not the case that none of the fundamentals are the same, but a case of handling them differently from even when Gerrard was a player.

Agree about results, and they're pretty much ordinary, in my view. I don't feel convinced or confident Gerrard knows what's wrong and therefore how to fix it, other than "throw it all away and start again" and I don't personally trust that he is particularly likely to get it right. But like you, I agree that he has to be given his chance (same as with the last bloke I didn't rate as being the answer, Steve Bruce). I was certain about him being the wrong choice, I'm less certain Gerrard is not capable, because he's been a manager a much shorter time, but he wasn't particularly successful i nScotland - 1 trophy in 3 years, was it? I mean, in a 2 team league!  But he did OK. It's not the Prem, though.

I would be interested to know, where you get that Pearler from?....I have been consistent in supporting SG from the Start.

As for the game has changed, yes it has and equally so many things of a different nature remain too, like Desire, fight, will to win , mental strength crucial parts of our modern game as they were years ago.....they are not affected by time or era.....Alan Ball was as tenacious then as Vardy is today and its still a huge element of the game.....Managers still have huge challenges with players today, like they did in yesteryear,( Arteta with Aubameyang) so thats a moot point.

I do not see your point about managing lower grade players better, because you've been there......Does Pep struggle with youth, because he  manages superstars, come on Pete, that is a weak argument.....Its like resigning the whole club to mediocrity, because thats what we are used to.

We have appointed a manager, who has top class pedigree,in the game, because we are not able just yet to secure the finished article, so he is potential, just like we are potential.....So he and us are using each other, to progress....sounds like a pretty nifty plan to me.

The argument that top players, don't make top managers is inaccurate too...Dalglish, Conte, Ancelotti, Zidane, Cryuff, Deschamps, Guardiola, Simone, are just a random few.

Your point about his Scotland exploits as just OK, Is jaundiced IMO.....The league title, from a team decimated by poor fortune, and you sniff at 1 trophy in 3 years, amazing.

We clearly have a different view Pete of our new manager, but as you quite rightly say, both of us do not have a monopoly of the outcome.

I am still trying to contain my amusement at your "consistently inconsistent" comment........I think the majority of posters would say, I labour the same point......ah well, hey ho.

 

 

 

[tinker]

52 minutes ago, TRO said:

The system where wingers was used, bore no fruit either, under a different manager....its going round and round in circles, blaming systems, exclusively.

We improved season on season. Until this season when we are not going to get anywhere near what we did last season despite upgrading the manager and spending £200m 

[duke313]

46 minutes ago, blandy said:

The whole point I made about managers like Potter or Dyche, is that they have an understanding of what it's like to be a player the manager thinks neds to do better, because they were themselves "average" - Gerrard can never have that. Managers from the past, the best ones, almost none were top international type players - Ferguson, Morinho, Graham Taylor, Big Fat Ron...they have the edge because they didn't have the natural gifts of the likes of Gerrard, Lampard, Bobby Charlton, Alan Ball...(there are exceptions, but often the best players don't make the best managers).

Plenty of good players made good managers back in the day; Cryuff, Capello, Trapattoni, Ancelotti, Dalglish to name a few.

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

31 minutes ago, sne said:

Most managers these days don't get to have "their team". Either for lack of funds at the club or not getting results good enough to be given 3-4 seasons.

Most of our players are likely mid-table PL quality. Remains to be seen if Gerrard is mid-table quality as a manager or if he's better than that. Or worse.

They usually get more than 20 games to have caused the future impending doom and financial ruin of a well run club though.

[sne]

1 minute ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

They usually get more than 20 games to have caused the future impending doom and financial ruin of a well run club though.

Honestly not sure they do  

[TRO]

46 minutes ago, KMitch said:

All the wingers were injured or battling their way back to fitness from injury at the start of the season...  Traore & Bailey have lived in the treatment room this season, Buendia was not fit to start the season, and "Iron Horse" Watkins missed his first games for us due to injury...  We were forced to play Young and El Ghazi on the wings at the start of the season, and even with that kind of service, Ings was banging them in.  They're all available for selection now plus Coutinho...  Smith at least had an excuse as to why it didn't work...  Gerrard has no excuses, especially when you're asking your CBs to bomb forward on the wing in possession.  Watch Wolves' first goal again yesterday.  When McGinn slips, Konsa is almost standing on the right touchline in the opposition's half and Mings is the only one behind McGinn on the pitch.  This is 100% on Gerrard's poor tactical instruction and not the "system".  Doesn't matter who we buy or what "system" we play, if he is asking the players to do stupid stuff like this.  

McGinn ran up a cul de sac and lost his footing arguably poor decision making....Konsa lost his footing to, being indecisive in his positioning, hows that the managers fault......was it the managers fault, when Gerrard himself made the infamous slip at Anfield? Thats inaccurate to me.

• I don't see one of our wingers having anything in their make up that spells "effective"......all total passengers, in a game.....I see more in Leeds wingers, who show, fight and aggression and a willingness to cause chaos.
• Ings banging them in?, do you mean his sex life.....He has scored 5 goals in 23 games, what prompted you to say that?
• Smith had 3 years and 5/6 windows in the hot seat to make it  work with his system....Gerrard has had 19 league games and 1 Jan Window, to sort out his system and you have the temerity to say Gerrard has no excuses....thats a joke.

 

[duke313]

4 minutes ago, TRO said:

McGinn ran up a cul de sac and lost his footing arguably poor decision making....Konsa lost his footing to, being indecisive in his positioning, hows that the managers fault......was it the managers fault, when Gerrard himself made the infamous slip at Anfield? Thats inaccurate to me.

• I don't see one of our wingers having anything in their make up that spells "effective"......all total passengers, in a game.....I see more in Leeds wingers, who show, fight and aggression and a willingness to cause chaos.
• Ings banging them in?, do you mean his sex life.....He has scored 5 goals in 23 games, what prompted you to say that?
• Smith had 3 years and 5/6 windows in the hot seat to make it  work with his system....Gerrard has had 19 league games and 1 Jan Window, to sort out his system and you have the temerity to say Gerrard has no excuses....thats a joke.

 

Smith didn't have a system, it was 'pass the ball to Jack'

[blandy]

26 minutes ago, TRO said:

I would be interested to know, where you get that Pearler from?....I have been consistent in supporting SG from the Start.

 

I mean the team's performances and results  I thought that was what you mean? Sorry for misunderstanding.

[TRO]

31 minutes ago, AntrimBlack said:

I want him to be successful with us, as I would with any manager, but I do have a worry that he could spend big, fail, and leave the club to pick up the expensive pieces.

I have had that worry, for years......when Ron Saunders and Graham Taylor could pick up gems and players, they got a tune out of....even Ron Atkinson, had a good eye, for a player.....O'Neill brought in a few good ones, but most were Meh, he wasted a lot too.

Any Manager can do that, AB....and the club also have a responsibility in the spending process.....Not one man, makes those decisions.....its not like the old days ( thought i'd slip that one in) its the modern game of committee's

Surely, he has enough, staff behind the scenes, with a plethora of Data and football Nous, to ensure the owners money is well spent.....fingers crossed.

[TRO]

14 minutes ago, blandy said:

I mean the team's performances and results  I thought that was what you mean? Sorry for misunderstanding.

Pete on results and Perfomances, I will always comment with honesty as I see it......If we play well, I will say so and why, I think we have.....and equally the same if we lose.

Unfortunately, this season, we have lost too many, even up to this point.

Edited April 4, 2022 by TRO

[TRO]

8 minutes ago, duke313 said:

Smith didn't have a system, it was 'pass the ball to Jack'

a bit harsh.

Deans legacy for me, other than Promotion, was.....He brought the club much needed stability and Harmony.....I can't praise/ value that enough.

[duke313]

Just now, TRO said:

a bit harsh.

Deans legacy for me, other than Promotion, was.....He brought the club much needed stability and Harmony.....I can't praise/ value that enough.

Have the utmost respect for Dean, he brought us back and kept us in the league.  But we were a one man team, we struggled massively in the PL when Jack was out injured.

[og1874]

Gerrard, like Smith before him, has suffered the Villa curse of almost every random individual error (a slip, a soft pass, a mis-control, an attempted clearance or whatever) ending up with a goal for the opposition. You make good luck through hard work, that's definitely true, but Christ on a bike I've never seen a team get undone by lapses in player concentration, or bad footwear choices, like we do. It happens to everyone every week, but other teams seem to be able to get away with it for weeks on end - with us it's almost a given that at least half the goals we concede on a given day are down to something like this.

Do we fix it by just assuming that the player on the ball, or challenging for the ball, is going to do something catastrophic? If so that's going to result in some seriously negative football. Or do we suck it up and get on with it, assuming that it'll even out over time. I mean, we're surely due a 2-3 year run of unbelievable luck, right? That, too, would probably end up in things just going as they were.

FWIW, I'm not a massive fan of a narrow system. It can work, but you need a monster midfield with perfect balance to pull it off, and I don't think we have those players (and they're probably not attainable at the moment either). Width has always been a tried and true way to get behind defences, without relying on your CMs to be temporary full backs when in possession every single time. I'm not entirely sure what Gerrard is trying to do overall, but I'm not looking for him to get the bullet after half a season, and I'm happy enough to let him have the time to get things together and see where it takes us. It's been too long since we've had any kind of footballing identity, and it's not going to happen overnight regardless of the manager.

If I was going to use any kind of stick to beat Gerrard, it would be why, when the squad is basically set up for wingers, we're going the complete opposite route, without the required personnel, rather than phasing it in. Still though, let's see how it goes. So long as were in or around the top half and not worrying about relegation, let's see what happens. We're not going to go toe to toe with the top 6 with like for like tactics or personnel, so maybe something completely different is the way to go.

All I know is that it's going to be a very interesting summer

[sharkyvilla]

53 minutes ago, sne said:

Most managers these days don't get to have "their team". Either for lack of funds at the club or not getting results good enough to be given 3-4 seasons.

Most of our players are likely mid-table PL quality. Remains to be seen if Gerrard is mid-table quality as a manager or if he's better than that. Or worse.

Indeed, most managers seem to be coaches these days and work their hardest to improve what they're given.  I've not seen improvement from anyone but Ramsey and I worry about the signing of someone like Digne, also tactically with the nipple system and the unfathomable selection of McGinn in defensive midfield the other day.  Digne's a good player but we did pay at the top of his value and probably has another 4 years on his contract where it will depreciate rapidly as he goes past 30.  Too many of those signings could ruin us like it did under Lerner.  I assume Lange's role is getting reduced and more power given to Gerrard than Smith had but I hope we don't go for anyone older than Phillips at 26 just in search of 'winners'.

[TRO]

4 minutes ago, og1874 said:

Gerrard, like Smith before him, has suffered the Villa curse of almost every random individual error (a slip, a soft pass, a mis-control, an attempted clearance or whatever) ending up with a goal for the opposition. You make good luck through hard work, that's definitely true, but Christ on a bike I've never seen a team get undone by lapses in player concentration, or bad footwear choices, like we do. It happens to everyone every week, but other teams seem to be able to get away with it for weeks on end - with us it's almost a given that at least half the goals we concede on a given day are down to something like this.

Do we fix it by just assuming that the player on the ball, or challenging for the ball, is going to do something catastrophic? If so that's going to result in some seriously negative football. Or do we suck it up and get on with it, assuming that it'll even out over time. I mean, we're surely due a 2-3 year run of unbelievable luck, right? That, too, would probably end up in things just going as they were.

FWIW, I'm not a massive fan of a narrow system. It can work, but you need a monster midfield with perfect balance to pull it off, and I don't think we have those players (and they're probably not attainable at the moment either). Width has always been a tried and true way to get behind defences, without relying on your CMs to be temporary full backs when in possession every single time. I'm not entirely sure what Gerrard is trying to do overall, but I'm not looking for him to get the bullet after half a season, and I'm happy enough to let him have the time to get things together and see where it takes us. It's been too long since we've had any kind of footballing identity, and it's not going to happen overnight regardless of the manager.

If I was going to use any kind of stick to beat Gerrard, it would be why, when the squad is basically set up for wingers, we're going the complete opposite route, without the required personnel, rather than phasing it in. Still though, let's see how it goes. So long as were in or around the top half and not worrying about relegation, let's see what happens. We're not going to go toe to toe with the top 6 with like for like tactics or personnel, so maybe something completely different is the way to go.

All I know is that it's going to be a very interesting summer

I am not trying to promote SG's system or Deans......because I see similar things happening against us with both systems, I see so many issues with both, like giving the ball away and not staying on it, systems haven't changed that......I don't think its just a system problem and I have done that to death.

But tell me where the wingers have delivered and got around the back of defences for Ollie and Danny to capitalise......In fact under Dean, Matty Targett was instrumental in getting a few crosses in ably assisted by Jacks hold up play....and the common view is Digne is better at that.

Every club, plays different systems, if one was the best, they would all play it.....It varies to suit the playing staff you have, unfortunately this squad, is not SG's.......yet.

What I have seen under Dean and SG.....is poor play, from players who lack any kind of consistency, they have days, sure.....but results don't lie.

 

 

[hippo]

Can't we just appoint a fat , bald shaven headed bloke, who wears a sheepskin coat and drinks in the dog and partridge in Stirchley ?