Ratings & Reactions: Villa v Wolves

[Follyfoot]

10 hours ago, Marka Ragnos said:

I wanted to wait a day or two to absorb the shock of that ending before I posted, so I don’t make a complete fool of myself. I’m just an enthusiastic American fan of Villa, and I don’t have a sophisticated understanding of tactics or any grasp of club coaching staff machinations, so I can’t really speak to those things.
 

That said, this felt like another painful but probably necessary lesson and an anomalous result. I hope we will learn from this, but I still feel so incredibly excited about Villa this year, and I know we’ll have better results.

I was watching the match as my United supporter best mate was watching his world crumble, too, and it was honestly kind of hilariously absurd. We were both just kind of wtf?!?!

I still feel a lot of confidence in Dean Smith, a lot more than my friend has for Ole now, not that I would know what was wisest anyway. 
 

I’ve been thinking a little bit about Murphy’s Law. I’m thinking, well, this can’t now happen again for the rest of the year, right? This can’t happen twice. It’s like a lightning strike.   So, in a wack way, we’ve achieved a stunning feat of utter stupidity. We are towering giants of the grotesque defensive collapse. It will at least be memorable, right?

 

Your understanding of football is perfect based on your avatar 

[TRO]

11 hours ago, Marka Ragnos said:

I wanted to wait a day or two to absorb the shock of that ending before I posted, so I don’t make a complete fool of myself. I’m just an enthusiastic American fan of Villa, and I don’t have a sophisticated understanding of tactics or any grasp of club coaching staff machinations, so I can’t really speak to those things.
 

That said, this felt like another painful but probably necessary lesson and an anomalous result. I hope we will learn from this, but I still feel so incredibly excited about Villa this year, and I know we’ll have better results.

I was watching the match as my United supporter best mate was watching his world crumble, too, and it was honestly kind of hilariously absurd. We were both just kind of wtf?!?!

I still feel a lot of confidence in Dean Smith, a lot more than my friend has for Ole now, not that I would know what was wisest anyway. 
 

I’ve been thinking a little bit about Murphy’s Law. I’m thinking, well, this can’t now happen again for the rest of the year, right? This can’t happen twice. It’s like a lightning strike.   So, in a wack way, we’ve achieved a stunning feat of utter stupidity. We are towering giants of the grotesque defensive collapse. It will at least be memorable, right?

 

who does, only those who think they have.....Fans have varing views of what went wrong, it could be many factors, from multiple sources.

Dean Smith has done so much right along the way, its hard to highlight the things that lead to this type of collapse....but, He has to find a way to prevent it, in the future......However, unless a rethink on some issues, I think we have, I can see it happening again ,sadly.

I think some issues we have are similar to what Man U have, but everyone will have their own take on it.

 

Edited October 18, 2021 by TRO

[TRO]

2 hours ago, Peter Griffin said:

I think that our players on the whole take their foot off the gas too easily. 2-0 up and cruising, 75 minutes on the clock, a rest and a hot shower may sound tempting. A consistent bugbear I have is how our team can all down tools and play at a pedestrian pace during games. More grit and roll your sleeves up old style football attitude is required imo

Its hard to say Pete....are they out of gas too early?.....are they driven enough in training?....are they chasing the ball too much? our possession stats are not great in general.

are we a team that likes to be on the ball, as opposed to off the ball ( where you use more gas)

many factors are up for debate.

I feel we need to demonstrate more fortitude and conviction in our general play....I feel we are much better against teams, who want to play, we are too easily negated against certain types of opposition, hence the inconsistency.

I feel we need to look carefully, in the next windows and not be so quick to buy, mecurial wizards or ball players....a few more resillient, durable players would add better balance to the squad.

I would like to see a 60/40 split with players 60% defensive/holding nous and 40% attacking nous......I feel the balance is more in favour of players with attacking nous at present....I think Fwiw, Man U have the same problem ( not that I care about them)

4 players who are on top of their game in attacking roles, is enough for me, and I think we could do damage in such circumstances. 

[Peter Griffin]

4 minutes ago, TRO said:

Its hard to say Pete....are they out of gas too early?.....are they driven enough in training?....are they chasing the ball too much? our possession stats are not great in general.

are we a team that likes to be on the ball, as opposed to off the ball ( where you use more gas)

many factors are up for debate.

I feel we need to demonstrate more fortitude and conviction in our general play....I feel we are much better against teams, who want to play, we are too easily negated against certain types of opposition, hence the inconsistency.

I feel we need to look carefully, in the next windows and not be so quick to buy, mecurial wizards or ball players....a few more resillient, durable players would add better balance to the squad.

I would like to see a 60/40 split with players 60% defensive/holding nous and 40% attacking nous......I feel the balance is more in favour of players with attacking nous at present....I think Fwiw, Man U have the same problem ( not that I care about them)

4 players who are on top of their game in attacking roles, is enough for me, and I think we could do damage in such circumstances. 

Yeah, can't disagree with anything there. The questions u pose are really key and no doubt Deano is metaphorically  banging his head against the wall looking for the answers. If we can see the problems then no doubt he can see them too. I think McGinn is the closest we have to a roll your sleeves up old style attitude but even he turns off far too frequently. I would love a really natural leader with a never say die attitude in the team. A Roy Keane type player and we could be top 6 I think. We need the drive on the pitch which would help us play against the teams we struggle to play against. I like your observation that we play better against teams that want to play football and would explain the inconsistency 

[TRO]

2 minutes ago, Peter Griffin said:

Yeah, can't disagree with anything there. The questions u pose are really key and no doubt Deano is metaphorically  banging his head against the wall looking for the answers. If we can see the problems then no doubt he can see them too. I think McGinn is the closest we have to a roll your sleeves up old style attitude but even he turns off far too frequently. I would love a really natural leader with a never say die attitude in the team. A Roy Keane type player and we could be top 6 I think. We need the drive on the pitch which would help us play against the teams we struggle to play against. I like your observation that we play better against teams that want to play football and would explain the inconsistency 

Totally endorse that.

I know we all see things different and folks views are to be respected, who don't agree with us.

I respect Dean and all he has done, but I think he needs to tweak his thinking, Like I think Thomas Frank has done with Dean's old team.....Thomas has added  some steel, to an already flamboyant and attractive style....Brentford was always a great watch, even when Dean was there, but they had inconsistencies that denied them titles....I feel to a certain degree at a higher level, we are like that......I agree with you a Keane or a Viera or a Rice ( for the not so old) would tranform us.....its that General/ natural leader, who can mix it in the middle and pull the strings and when the going gets tough, give it back.

I am genuinely worried for Dean, because a few more defeats and he could be looking over his shoulder....Thats not me, hoping for it, far from it, but NSWE are not going to excercise the patience, some folk think, should be employed.

I really want Dean to get it right and I mean get results, I feel he is very close, but a bit closer examination/appraisal and the right action in the Jan window and he will help himself hugely.

 

 

 

[Risso]

We seem to have rediscovered the soft underbelly we had from the first season back in the top division. 3-0 down to Watford before we even remotely started playing. Defence all over the place for Brentford's goal. Equalise against Spurs, but rather than push on, concede another goal very shortly after and lose. Play nicely but make silly mistakes agsinst Chelsea. Go 2-0 up against Wolves and throw it away in ten minutes with Sunday League level defending. All quite concerning.

[Peter Griffin]

1 minute ago, TRO said:

Totally endorse that.

I know we all see things different and folks views are to be respected, who don't agree with us.

I respect Dean and all he has done, but I think he needs to tweak his thinking, Like I think Thomas Frank has done with Dean's old team.....Thomas has added  some steel, to an already flamboyant and attractive style....Brentford was always a great watch, even when Dean was there, but they had inconsistencies that denied them titles....I feel to a certain degree at a higher level, we are like that......I agree with you a Keane or a Viera or a Rice ( for the not so old) would tranform us.....its that General/ natural leader, who can mix it in the middle and pull the strings and when the going gets tough, give it back.

I am genuinely worried for Dean, because a few more defeats and he could be looking over his shoulder....Thats not me, hoping for it, far from it, but NSWE are not going to excercise the patience, some folk think, should be employed.

I really want Dean to get it right and I mean get results, I feel he is very close, but a bit closer examination/appraisal and the right action in the Jan window and he will help himself hugely.

 

 

 

I would be happy to see us only buy one player between the Jan and next summer transfer window and invest 100m on a single player that brought steel to the spine of our team. Rice would do nicely. Phillips would be a cheaper option and Bellingham would be an interesting one and that would have the added bonus of upsetting our neighbours

[TRO]

6 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

I've already said it was an awful result and a disaster. Obviously the manager takes some blame but it I can also understand why those subs were made. 

Serious lack of character and leadership from some towards the end, which I'm not sure I'm all in on blaming the manager for over a bad 10 minute spell. 

It was incredibly poor and can't be something we see often. 

Thank you.

I too am not blaming the manager.....but he will be held responsible by the owners, make no mistake about that.

i.e If a kid throws a book through the window in school, its not the teachers fault....but he sets the tone/discipline and the Headmaster will see it that way.

Dean needs for his own defence to look analytically at the last 15 minutes and the the 15 minutes prior, when the storm clouds were gathering and take the necessary action...he needs to put down a marker.

I agree with you about the character and leadership, I think he was let down badly.

[Peter Griffin]

7 minutes ago, Risso said:

We seem to have rediscovered the soft underbelly we had from the first season back in the top division. 3-0 down to Watford before we even remotely started playing. Defence all over the place for Brentford's goal. Equalise against Spurs, but rather than push on, concede another goal very shortly after and lose. Play nicely but make silly mistakes agsinst Chelsea. Go 2-0 up against Wolves and throw it away in ten minutes with Sunday League level defending. All quite concerning.

and majorly infuriating 

[Vive_La_Villa]

I still think Saturday was so out of character I wonder if a jaded Martinez had an impact. He is normally very vocal, commanding and organising the defence. He didn’t seem his usual self at all. Probably understandable after the week he’s had. 
 

Still no excuse for the defence I’m just wondering if it had an impact. 

[TRO]

43 minutes ago, Peter Griffin said:

I would be happy to see us only buy one player between the Jan and next summer transfer window and invest 100m on a single player that brought steel to the spine of our team. Rice would do nicely. Phillips would be a cheaper option and Bellingham would be an interesting one and that would have the added bonus of upsetting our neighbours

All those would add steel....ambitious Pete, I have to say.

but players are out there, folk with far broader knowledge than me will know that.

The first hurdle to mount, is Dean needs to see it or want it.....I am not sure on that.

However, these players are not always deemed to be expensive....Kante,Bissouma, Ndidi, were all modest purchases, before they became high profile......its talent spotting, that is key.

Its interesting how Chelsea, bought Jorginho from Napoli for 50 mill....while they still had Kante on the books, such is the level of nous employed to have 2 such players at one time......sure they can can do most jobs in midfield, but both can win the ball back.

The top teams make it their mission to ensure such leaders and resillence is in their ranks......I am just hoping, we haven't got around to it yet.

Edited October 18, 2021 by TRO

[Peter Griffin]

7 minutes ago, TRO said:

All those would add steel....ambitious Pete, I have to say.

but players are out there, folk with far broader knowledge than me will know that.

The first hurdle to mount, is Dean needs to see it or want it.....I am not sure on that.

However, these players are not always deemed to be expensive....Kante,Bissouma, Ndidi, were all modest purchases, before they became high profile......its talent spotting, that is key.

Talent spotting is key and I think we need that on an ongoing basis. Some will work out and some won't. But when it comes to the really key position that needs to be filled I would prefer to see us buy the finished player that will more or less guarantee an instant impact. The worry is that DS doesn't see this issue but it is difficult to believe that he doesn't. Part of your previous post triggered a thought inside me which is quickly a concern...'Brentford was always a great watch, even when Dean was there, but they had inconsistencies that denied them titles'. That is scarily where we are now and in the time since DS left Bees, they have won promotion to the Premier League and are currently making a bloody good fist of it. I really hope we are not discovering DS's achilles heal. 

[TRO]

5 minutes ago, Peter Griffin said:

Talent spotting is key and I think we need that on an ongoing basis. Some will work out and some won't. But when it comes to the really key position that needs to be filled I would prefer to see us buy the finished player that will more or less guarantee an instant impact. The worry is that DS doesn't see this issue but it is difficult to believe that he doesn't. Part of your previous post triggered a thought inside me which is quickly a concern...'Brentford was always a great watch, even when Dean was there, but they had inconsistencies that denied them titles'. That is scarily where we are now and in the time since DS left Bees, they have won promotion to the Premier League and are currently making a bloody good fist of it. I really hope we are not discovering DS's achilles heal. 

I hope not too....

They have bought some good players, as they always seem to do and they did when Dean was there......but what I have seen slightly different is their ability to add steel to their game and not lose the ability to cause mayhem.

Whether its a "new broom sweeps clean", only time will tell....I have to say, I like Franks general persona, Dean did well to bring him in to the bees.

[The Fun Factory]

I just think it was a collective brain fart by the team. Still just as annoying though. Also is it me or whenever McGinn scores we tend to lose or drop points? The Shef Wed  thunderbastard and the goal versus Burnley when we then let one in straight after spring to mind.

[OutByEaster?]

58 minutes ago, TRO said:

Its interesting how Chelsea, bought Jorginho from Napoli for 50 mill....while they still had Kante on the books, such is the level of nous employed to have 2 such players at one time......sure they can can do most jobs in midfield, but both can win the ball back.

The top teams make it their mission to ensure such leaders and resillence is in their ranks......I am just hoping, we haven't got around to it yet.

We tried really hard to do that in the summer - missing out on Ward-Prowse continues to cause us problems.

 

[onmeedson]

What a shambles, the total lack of leadership on the park and discipline to be in control of the back line was abandoned at 80 mins. All wolves had to do was to step up a gear and bully our defence into flapping and do we do that well.

[TRO]

33 minutes ago, onmeedson said:

What a shambles, the total lack of leadership on the park and discipline to be in control of the back line was abandoned at 80 mins. All wolves had to do was to step up a gear and bully our defence into flapping and do we do that well.

It was creeping on around 15 minutes before.....sloppy slices at balls and big boots up field, to give it away.

We scored 2 cracking goals, but Wolves were in this game more then we are crediting them, just like Everton was before our goals.......we have many things to address, but the main one is, we are too easy to play against.

[villalad21]

Happened too many times for it to be a one time event.

Also we are not good to come back from losing positions.

Just look at Wolves winning that game being 2-0 behind. Can not see us being able to do that.

All these things comes down to the mentality. It's all well and good to do it when everything is rosy. But it's when things are starting to go against you and your back is against the wall you see the true character and mental strength in your team.

This is a discussion that needs to  be had. We can't just ignore it. 

Edited October 18, 2021 by villalad21

[OutByEaster?]

I'm still baffled by it - sometimes when there's a comeback, you can see it coming - this wasn't coming - it just wasn't happening, there was no hint of it, no chance of it occurring.
Until it did.

I thought we edged the first half but it was pretty even, then McGinn grabbed the game by the scruff of the neck and we dominated from 45-80. 

I don't think the substitutes were the difference, I think it's a daft challenge by Ramsey at the end, but he initially brought us some energy through the middle and I thought showed signs that he'd be instrumental in a third for us - Nakamba gave us a bit of energy, but I don't think changed the game substantially. Luiz was tiring, but I think his good decision making and calmness on the ball could have been helpful if we'd gone with taking off one of the first two instead - Buendia had become less effective as the second half wore on and was struggling to get into the game. There's a case for Cash having to go off weakening us for the last ten - hopefully he's back for Arsenal.

I think the two keys for me are two things we did and one thing we didn't do - both of them come down to mentality.

My timing might be out on this, but there were two scuffed clearances from Mings, one after our second goal and one after their first, both of which were sliced into the air - they looked anxious and nervy and it seemed like the rest of the side took their keys from that and followed from the skipper - a sort of collective decision that if Tyrone was nervous we should be nervous too. Little things, but they affected the mood I thought. It's important we have people on the pitch and on the sideline that can change that.

The other one was our inability to keep the ball, we'd not been great at it during the game with our success largely coming from McGinn running it out from the back and longer balls down the channels for the forwards or McGinn to chase - at the end what we really needed was to get into positions where we were passing the ball around at the back and in midfield and just taking the sting out of things - we're absolutely awful at that and it's something we really need to work at - instead the balls into the channels were a bit scrappy and we'd just be giving the ball back. When McGinn and co tried to run it out they'd get caught. I'd love to see the possession numbers for that last ten minutes, I'm sure it'd be awful. Confident, calm possession without an immediate aim might not be our plan A, but as a plan B we really need to work at it - I watched Spurs do it yesterday and Newcastle didn't get near them, let alone threaten them in the last seven minutes of their game.

In the end, the goals we conceded were scrappy, but we'd invited the ball into our box and then looked nervous - it's still almost freakishly unlucky that there'd be three goals out of them, but y'know, that's football for you - and we've ended up making a great day out for the Wolves fans who certainly looked like they enjoyed it.

Even after the first goal I thought there was still no chance of it happening, I never really thought "here we go", at least not until the free kick at the end - at 2-2, I actually thought we were still the more likely winners - sadly, that's not something I think our players felt.

If we had that plan in place to control the ball, it brings some composure with it and that brings the confidence that would have stopped those goals happening - as it was, we hoofed and sliced and scampered up blind alleys and allowed our defence to become a little frantic. All we need is calm heads and a plan to keep the ball - it's not a massive change - I don't think we need to reinvent the wheel, just make sure it doesn't fall off when we need to control things. 

 

[OutByEaster?]

1 minute ago, villalad21 said:

All these things comes down to the mentality. It's all well and good to do it when everything is rosy. But it's when things are starting to go against you and your back is against the wall you see the true character in the team.

I kind of agree with you on the principle, but oddly, we're the opposite - our character when we're up against it and in a fight is fantastic, we'll battle anyone, we're a terrier. Our problem is that we can't do it when everything is rosy.

We're a brilliant underdog with no idea how to relax, dominate and control games - the character I think is there - it's the movement, the bravery, confidence and ability on the ball that's missing.