Team shape, tactics and personnel

[TRO]

Watching Newcastle last night reminded me of the some way to go before we can press and engage in physical encounter like them.

They make chances by their physical challenges, and the whole team do it, well.

I am hoping in the summer, we can get a few in who are comfortable with this kind of engagement.

We have done great so far, but to go the extra bit, we do have to mirror a bit of what they do well, in terms of pressing.

We are not quite equipped to play like Newcastle last night....albeit they do rely on the long ball quite a lot.

 

Edited April 6, 2023 by TRO

[Tomaszk]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

Watching Newcastle last night reminded me of the some way to go before we can press and engage in physical encounter like them.

They make chances by their physical challenges, and the whole team do it, well.

I am hoping in the summer, we can get a few in who are comfortable with this kind of engagement.

We have done great so far, but to go the extra bit, we do have to mirror a bit of what they do well, in terms of pressing.

We are not quite equipped to play like Newcastle last night....albeit they do rely on the long ball quite a lot.

 

Are West Ham equipped for a physical battle?

[Anything11]

On 05/04/2023 at 05:20, DJBOB said:

Unai taking advantage of an interim manager and showing a build-up Villa haven't used before this season. Taking a page out of De Zerbi's book - in possession Villa are in a 4222 but with Buendia and JJ occupying the half spaces centrally in quasi false 9/number 10 roles with Watkins and Bailey split wide. This caused Leciester CB's to be in an uncomfortable area of marking no one but if they pressed up too high against Buendia and JJ - it would leave Watkins and Bailey to run in behind. This required a lot of concentration and effort on Mings/Konsa and JJ/McGinn to play with almost 6-7 Leicester players surrounding but the first goal was executed to perfection. Konsa plays in to Dougie who plays a great first time ball to an unmarked Buendia (the CB's elected not to press) and makes the perfect pass to Watkins who is wrong side of Souttar.

Levels above Unai is.

Was Watkins really out wide? Bailey always is but I recall Watkins being mostly in his just off central position as he usually is. 

JJ and Buendia played similar roles vs Chelsea too

[duke313]

3 minutes ago, Anything11 said:

Was Watkins really out wide? Bailey always is but I recall Watkins being mostly in his just off central position as he usually is. 

JJ and Buendia played similar roles vs Chelsea too

Watkins was mostly centre-left, not as wide as Bailey but not down middle either.

[DJBOB]

2 minutes ago, Anything11 said:

Was Watkins really out wide? Bailey always is but I recall Watkins being mostly in his just off central position as he usually is. 

JJ and Buendia played similar roles vs Chelsea too

Watkins wasn't truly wide like Mitoma is for Brighton but he was purposefully in between Souttar and Castagne while Bailey was wide of Kristiansen. Purpose of it was to have a numbers advantage in the middle and to give the Leicester CB's an uncomfortable decision of whether or not to press Buendia/JJ and leave space in behind or leave Buendia/JJ with lots of space to pick a pass or drive forward. First goal was emblematic of that problematic decision making.

This changed after the first half when Leicester stopped pressing beyond the half way line.

Versus Chelsea, Buendia was in a similar position but JJ was more wide left (similar to his positioning vs Bournemouth) as Villa tried to get Chelsea to commit players forward and then hit the combo of Watkins/Buendia laying off to JJ/McGinn and then pinging it forward.

[Anything11]

1 minute ago, DJBOB said:

Watkins wasn't truly wide like Mitoma is for Brighton but he was purposefully in between Souttar and Castagne while Bailey was wide of Kristiansen. Purpose of it was to have a numbers advantage in the middle and to give the Leicester CB's an uncomfortable decision of whether or not to press Buendia/JJ and leave space in behind or leave Buendia/JJ with lots of space to pick a pass or drive forward. First goal was emblematic of that problematic decision making.

This changed after the first half when Leicester stopped pressing beyond the half way line.

Versus Chelsea, Buendia was in a similar position but JJ was more wide left (similar to his positioning vs Bournemouth) as Villa tried to get Chelsea to commit players forward and then hit the combo of Watkins/Buendia laying off to JJ/McGinn and then pinging it forward.

Interesting. I am going to go look back a bit closer.

[DJBOB]

4vs3 in the middle (Barnes and Maddison have to stay wide to press the fullbacks) while Faes and Souttar mark no one. Souttar was especially guilty of this in the first half.

Vardy is laughably outnumbered as Mings and Konsa easily pass it to each other before Luiz sneaks in behind and Konsa makes an easy pass to him. Notice Souttar square as opposed to body turned like Faes. 

Mendy jumps to press and if Luiz doesn’t get there in time, they have a clear numbers advantage down the middle. The weight of the pass from Konsa is perfect and Luiz chips it over to Buendia. Notice Souttar is still square. Faes, Castagne are ready to drop or press.  
 
This kind of 50/50 decision making is what Unai is trying to do tactically. On the podcast a few posts back, modern football is described as a series of problem solving exercises. Souttar doesn’t know whether he should press Buendia or drop. Ultimately does neither. 
 
Souttar is done for and still square. Faes, even from the other side recognizes the danger. Castagne is trying but Watkins has him done for pace and the weight of the pass from Buendia is perfect. Just all left to Ollie after that. 

Edited April 6, 2023 by DJBOB

[duke313]

4 minutes ago, DJBOB said:

4vs3 in the middle (Barnes and Maddison have to stay wide to press the fullbacks) while Faes and Souttar mark no one. Souttar was especially guilty of this in the first half.
 

 Vardy is laughably outnumbered as Mings and Konsa easily pass it to each other before Luiz sneaks in behind and Konsa makes an easy pass to him. Notice Souttar square as opposed to body turned like Faes. 
 
Mendy jumps to press and if Luiz doesn’t get there in time, they have a clear numbers advantage down the middle. The weight of the pass from Konsa is perfect and Luiz chips it over to Buendia. Notice Souttar is still square. Faes, Castagne are ready to drop or press.  
 
This kind of 50/50 decision making is what Unai is trying to do tactically. On the podcast a few posts back, modern football is described as a series of problem solving exercises. Souttar doesn’t know whether he should press Buendia or drop. Ultimately does neither. 
 
Souttar is done for and still square. Faes, even from the other side recognizes the danger. Castagne is trying but Watkins has him done for pace and the weight of the pass from Buendia is perfect. Just all left to Ollie after that. 

Perfect analysis.

It just goes to show Emery really is a genius.  I'd argue that he is more important than any player we have in the squad. I would sell the entire team before letting Emery go.

Emery > Entire Team

Edited April 6, 2023 by duke313

[nepal_villan]

For those that followed Emery at his previous stops - does he usually play with just one winger (Bailey) and has the fullback on the opposite side (Moreno) bombing forward? Or is this a product of our personnel?    

Edited April 8, 2023 by nepal_villan

[DJBOB]

30 minutes ago, nepal_villan said:

For those that followed Emery at his previous stops - does he usually play with just one winger (Bailey) and has the fullback on the opposite side (Moreno) bombing forward? Or is this a product of our personnel?    

He was more varied with Arsenal and prior but since Villareal, this has usually been the case. But this is really more against entrenched opponents in the final third. 
 
He uses a variety of formations and set ups in our own and middle third. 

[briny_ear]

On 06/04/2023 at 14:03, duke313 said:

Perfect analysis.

It just goes to show Emery really is a genius.  I'd argue that he is more important than any player we have in the squad. I would sell the entire team before letting Emery go.

Emery > Entire Team

True in a way but the main point about Emery is he is such a good coach we don’t need to sell off the whole team (as I once thought we would have to if there was to be any genuine improvement). He has got performances out of the existing squad that previous managers could only dream about, or perhaps they couldn’t even imagine. 
 

Our strengthening this summer can be more targeted and so more effective.

[CVByrne]

I love how we are getting criticism for not being open after we take the lead. Emery is clear, THEY are losing, THEY need to open up and attack us. When they do that we hurt them and score our 2nd goal. 

So we get periods of the game where opposition aren't opening up to attack us and we're winning so we aren't going to blink first.

Well. Coached. Team. 

[CVByrne]

We are getting worked out now though. Pressing us gives us the way to trap the opposition by generating quick counter attacking moves into the space behind the press. The fact Emery is teaching the team to want the press to counter through means we'll see teams sit more mid block.

Newcastle will be fascinating game tactically 

[DJBOB]

6 minutes ago, CVByrne said:

I love how we are getting criticism for not being open after we take the lead. Emery is clear, THEY are losing, THEY need to open up and attack us. When they do that we hurt them and score our 2nd goal. 

So we get periods of the game where opposition aren't opening up to attack us and we're winning so we aren't going to blink first.

Well. Coached. Team. 

Clear sign of this was Forest making their formation change at around 65’ to go with a back 4 and press high for the equalizer and almost immediately, Konsa found JJ wide open behind their midfield line which led to the Moreno to Buendia chance. Scared them enough to go back to a mid block even they were losing. 

[duke313]

11 minutes ago, CVByrne said:

We are getting worked out now though. Pressing us gives us the way to trap the opposition by generating quick counter attacking moves into the space behind the press. The fact Emery is teaching the team to want the press to counter through means we'll see teams sit more mid block.

Newcastle will be fascinating game tactically 

The problem with that is if the team sits too deep for too long and we score, their game plan is goes out the window.

[DJBOB]

2 minutes ago, duke313 said:

The problem with that is if the team sits too deep for too long and we score, their game plan is goes out the window.

That’s always been the gameplan for most opponents at VP though and it’s hardly a wrong decision. Outside of Shelvey laying off a sitter to Bertie, we hardly created anything. And if one of those set pieces go Forest’s way or even Souttar had made that open header for Leicester then we would have really been in for one. 
 
But the difference now is that if we do manage a goal, we now have a way of punishing them for pressing for an equalizer as opposed to constantly losing the ball by going long and then getting penned back. I think that was most frustrating for Unai against Arsenal was that we had them right where we wanted them but weren’t brave enough on the ball. 
 
 

[MWARLEY2]

Not so mucb about personnel than not having personnel. 

15 and a half  fit senior players currently

Forwards Watkins    Buendia Traore 

Midfielders Luiz McGinn Dendocker Ramsey

Defenders Moreno Digne Mings Konsa Young Chambers ( and Carlos being the extra half ) 

Martinez Olsen 

Alot of our run in will depend as much on keeping enough players fit as facing top quality teams. 

[MWARLEY2]

Whether we are playing particularly well is open to debate, but what we are doing now thanks to this genius of a man is playing as a team and following the plan. 

Players can have average games but because they follow the plan they end up impacting the match. 

We were a team of individuals but somehow we have morphed into a team greater than the sum of its parts.whicb is insane. That Ty interview on football daily yesterday where he said they  will be working on something at the start of the week tactically and they will not have a clue why until later in the week when he reveals why. Shows he is different gravy to anyone bar Saunders who has managed us in the colour age 

 

[TRO]

7 hours ago, CVByrne said:

I love how we are getting criticism for not being open after we take the lead. Emery is clear, THEY are losing, THEY need to open up and attack us. When they do that we hurt them and score our 2nd goal. 

So we get periods of the game where opposition aren't opening up to attack us and we're winning so we aren't going to blink first.

Well. Coached. Team. 

We as a crowd are learning too.

[briny_ear]

20 hours ago, MWARLEY2 said:

Not so mucb about personnel than not having personnel. 

15 and a half  fit senior players currently

Forwards Watkins    Buendia Traore 

Midfielders Luiz McGinn Dendocker Ramsey

Defenders Moreno Digne Mings Konsa Young Chambers ( and Carlos being the extra half ) 

Martinez Olsen 

Alot of our run in will depend as much on keeping enough players fit as facing top quality teams. 

And how quickly the injured ones can return. Hopefully we can at least  get Cash and Kamara in action within a couple of weeks.