Team shape, tactics and personnel

[DJBOB]

18 minutes ago, Delphinho123 said:

Fine, but we cause ourselves all manner of problems by doing this and I can't say it doesn't frustrate me. We lose the ball so often playing this way and it's costs us two goals in two games. Possibly more, but I can't remember the passages of play for the United goals. 

Agreed that it's good to suck their midfielders towards our goal to create space in behind, we just need to make sure they don't score from us trying it!

Unai did promise us entertainment! One way or another. 

[CVByrne]

16 minutes ago, Delphinho123 said:

Fine, but we cause ourselves all manner of problems by doing this and I can't say it doesn't frustrate me. We lose the ball so often playing this way and it's costs us two goals in two games. Possibly more, but I can't remember the passages of play for the United goals. 

Agreed that it's good to suck their midfielders towards our goal to create space in behind, we just need to make sure they don't score from us trying it!

With coaching and practice we'll become more press resistant. It takes time to get there though. But the way Emery wants us to do it means it's not all or nothing, if their press is good we have the direct balls. Having two ball players as 6s is also important and a player like Diego Carlos will be too. 

[MarkLillis]

6 minutes ago, duke313 said:

We haven't faced a low block yet under UE.  Be interesting to see how we cope with balls over the top, as we were constantly getting undone in the United Cup game by them.  Most were caught offside, but it only takes one not to be off-side,

Yes high line is very risky one way to protect against getting caught out is Emi playing as a sweeper…

The other way is to have very fast defenders who can recover….Kyle Walker style.

[CVByrne]

2 hours ago, duke313 said:

We haven't faced a low block yet under UE.  Be interesting to see how we cope with balls over the top, as we were constantly getting undone in the United Cup game by them.  Most were caught offside, but it only takes one not to be off-side,

It was chaotic that game. We played too high a line with Chambers who is not quick and Olsen who doesn't sweep. We switched off after we scored the first and they got in easy behind us. 

I think for their 2nd we're unfortunate with Mings losing his feet. Their 3rd is bad error from Olsen and a deflection off Mings. 4th we had to chase game as we were going out. 

I think mid block with two quick CBs (Konsa/Mings) and Martinez sweeping properly isn't too dangerous.  

[duke313]

7 minutes ago, CVByrne said:

It was chaotic that game. We played too high a line with Chambers who is not quick and Olsen who doesn't sweep. We switched off after we scored the first and they got in easy behind us. 

I think for their 2nd we're unfortunate with Mings losing his feet. Their 3rd is bad error from Olsen and a deflection off Mings. 4th we had to chase game as we were going out. 

I think mid block with two quick CBs (Konsa/Mings) and Martinez sweeping properly isn't too dangerous.  

I think Emery favored a mid-block at Villarreal, probably the best for us for now.

[TomC]

11 hours ago, CVByrne said:

I do remain worried about us at home to sides who are in the bottom half and will execute a low block.

6 hours ago, duke313 said:

We haven't faced a low block yet under UE.

This. I look forward to seeing how he handles low blocks. It's been our weakness for a long time, and why we've often looked great against the top 6 (despite eventually losing) but then struggle against bottom-of-the-table teams.

 

[TomC]

On 11/11/2022 at 12:03, DJBOB said:

The 4132 box shape leaves this area exposed with the high line...

First, my compliments...you're one of our best tactical observers. I enjoy your posts.

What are you referring to by the "box" in a 4-1-3-2 box?

 

[CVByrne]

1 minute ago, TomC said:

First, my compliments...you're one of our best tactical observers. I enjoy your posts.

What are you referring to by the "box" in a 4-1-3-2 box?

 

I think he means the 4 2 2 2 box as the 2 and 2 make a box shape. 

[DJBOB]

1 hour ago, TomC said:

First, my compliments...you're one of our best tactical observers. I enjoy your posts.

What are you referring to by the "box" in a 4-1-3-2 box?

 

Unai has switched around between defending in a 442, a 4222, and a 4132 (not too dissimilar from Gerrard's diamond) - as well as the various 5-3-2 and 6-3-1 and 6-4-0 we used to close Brighton out. The 4132 we used to defend at times against United to deny their midfield passers time to turn and pick up their head from a central position

Luiz and Dendocker interchanged this role but one would press Casemiro to be the tip of the diamond and deny them the time to orchestrate the match and the other would drop to shield the pass into the strikers. The outside mids Buendia and Ramsay would mark anyone drifting inside which would force the opponent to go wide. This invites a lot of play from the fullbacks (which in turn will force these fullback forwards and leave the strikers 1v1 against the CB's on the counter). Additionally, we outnumber them in the middle of the park (a rarity for Villa for a long time) - and we scored our third goal this way in the league by swarming when they tried to make a combination inside and releasing Watkins early.

It's not pictured here because this is the league game, but Villa had a much higher line in the cup. For what reasons, I'm not sure - but they were more in a mid block during the league which was more to our strengths. As @CVByrne noted during our MOTD2 analysis - the backline would move up as the ball shifted or was passed backwards in order to compress the pitch and allow Martinez to have more room to sweep and prevent us from dropping into too deep of a block.

But as you can see in the blue lines - the out ball to the fullbacks is purposefully allowed. Playing a high line like we did against United in the cup with slow defenders eventually broke as Olsen became scared to come off his line and Chambers/Ludwig were too slow to be playing such a high line once the fullbacks started going over the top.

 

Edited November 14, 2022 by DJBOB

[TomC]

3 minutes ago, DJBOB said:

Unai has switched around between defending in a 442 a 4222 and a 4132 (not too dissimilar from Gerrard's diamond). The 4132 we used to defend at times against United to deny their midfield passers time to turn and pick up their head from a central position

Luiz and Dendocker interchanged this role but one would press Casemiro to be the tip of the diamond and deny them the time to orchestrate the match and the other would drop to shield the pass into the strikers. The outside mids Buendia and Ramsay would mark anyone drifting inside which would force the opponent to go wide. This invites a lot of play from the fullbacks (which in turn will force these fullback forwards and leave the strikers 1v1 against the CB's on the counter). Additionally, we outnumber them in the middle of the park (a rarity for Villa for a long time) - and we scored our third goal this way in the cup by swarming when they tried to make a combination inside and releasing Watkins early.

It's not pictured here because this is the league game, but Villa had a much higher line in the cup. For what reasons, I'm not sure - but they were more in a mid block during the league which was more to our strengths. As @CVByrne noted during our MOTD2 analysis - the backline would move up as the ball shifted or was passed backwards in order to compress the pitch and allow Martinez to have more room to sweep and prevent us from dropping into too deep of a block.

But as you can see in the blue lines - the out ball to the fullbacks is purposefully allowed. Playing a high line like we did against United in the cup with slow defenders eventually broke as Olsen became scared to come off his line and Chambers/Ludwig were too slow to be playing such a high line once the fullbacks started going over the top.

 

Got it...when you said "box," I pictured players at the corners of the red box that you drew above, which didn't seem to be 4-1-3-2, more of a 4-2-2-2.

 

[CVByrne]

I take your point about the two central midfielders, one pressing and one sitting. However I wouldn't call the pressing movements of one of the two central midfielders in our defensive shape a 4 1 3 2. It's just a 4 4 2 really. While the 4 2 2 2 attacking shape is an actual set up when we are building play. 

[DJBOB]

1 minute ago, TomC said:

Got it...when you said "box," I pictured players at the corners of the red box that you drew above, which didn't seem to be 4-1-3-2, more of a 4-2-2-2.

 

Yes - at times we would be in an actual narrow 4222 shape with the outside mids lining up narrow and both center mids staying back. We did that at times against United in the league in the second half once Casemiro and Eriksen started dropping deeper to receive the ball and make their play. You can see even in the picture just how deep and wide Eriksen is in order to receive the ball. But this is purposeful. You wanted to avoid their passers in the danger areas for as long as possible. You can see even in the picture, Villa are using 3 players to mark 4 of United's players - useless from United's point of view.

This sort of thing would often happen towards VIlla - being outnumbered in the three different lines (defense-midfield-attack). It is a core tenant of shapes that Gerrard had no clue how to address but Unai uses to outnumber the opponent when it matters.

[CVByrne]

3 minutes ago, TomC said:

Got it...when you said "box," I pictured players at the corners of the red box that you drew above, which didn't seem to be 4-1-3-2, more of a 4-2-2-2.

 

The picture is just a 4 4 2 defensive set up. The box refers to our attacking set up when the two wide midfielders advance in front of the two central midfielders and are narrow. This creates the box shape. It opens space for one or other full back to advance down the flanks while the other full back moves in line with the two CMs. This way we can get 5 in attack

[DJBOB]

4 minutes ago, CVByrne said:

I take your point about the two central midfielders, one pressing and one sitting. However I wouldn't call the pressing movements of one of the two central midfielders in our defensive shape a 4 1 3 2. It's just a 4 4 2 really. While the 4 2 2 2 attacking shape is an actual set up when we are building play. 

I wouldn't be too hung up on the semantics of the numerical formations, but Villa did have a presser and a sitter to form a box in the midfield during the United league game.

Noticeably, they avoided that tactic against Brighton as Brighton use the Pep-inspired 235 or 325 build up. In those shapes, there is no one for Luiz or Kamara to press so they sit in a more traditional 442 block to make sure they don't have a numerical disadvantage at the back.

Edited November 14, 2022 by DJBOB

[Mark Albrighton]

I have to be honest, I really did enjoy seeing the line of defence analysis on Match of the Day.

Not so much the analysis itself, more the fact the defensive organisation had been noticed and highlighted. Made me wonder when the last time I saw MOTD pundits look at how Villa have implemented their game plan.

They’ll point out good play, a nice bit of skill or whatever. But I can’t remember when Villa’s organisation had been looked at. Always seems to be other clubs that have that.

[DJBOB]

3 minutes ago, Mark Albrighton said:

I have to be honest, I really did enjoy seeing the line of defence analysis on Match of the Day.

Not so much the analysis itself, more the fact the defensive organisation had been noticed and highlighted. Made me wonder when the last time I saw MOTD pundits look at how Villa have implemented their game plan.

They’ll point out good play, a nice bit of skill or whatever. But I can’t remember when Villa’s organisation had been looked at. Always seems to be other clubs that have that.

It's great to see and I forget who said it, but Villa have spent a fortune on the players but skimp on the manager. Now that we have a manager with some tactical sense about him, we can start maximizing the utility of the players we have instead of just languishing them.

My favorite bit was when we were closing out the game at the 75' mark. Unai saw the match and decided we can see this out. Brighton are building in a 3 (red) - 2 (blue) - 5 (green). But at each point except for the forward line, Villa out number. 6 vs their 5 and 3 vs their 2 but only 1 striker up top against 3 CB's. But we don't care about their back 3 - they are of no danger. Makes it even more silly that we employed Gerrard for so long. We'd still be sitting in the same shape up 1 goal.

 

 

[CVByrne]

It's worth pointing out Gerrad has success in his first 6 games, winning 4 of them. He set us up defensively and with a new set up with central block. Lots of new energy with new manager etc. Opposition coaches worked us our pretty quickly and blocked midfield and forced us to attack via our full backs down the flanks. 

Emery thankfully is more tactically astute and will change the game and set up for the opposition. He also knows to set us up to get the best out of the players we have. 

[Villaphan04]

I wonder if we will see a 4-4-2 with Ollie and Ings up top in the future. 

[Kiwivillan]

On 15/11/2022 at 10:16, CVByrne said:

It's worth pointing out Gerrad has success in his first 6 games, winning 4 of them. He set us up defensively and with a new set up with central block. Lots of new energy with new manager etc. Opposition coaches worked us our pretty quickly and blocked midfield and forced us to attack via our full backs down the flanks. 

Emery thankfully is more tactically astute and will change the game and set up for the opposition. He also knows to set us up to get the best out of the players we have. 

It's worth pointing out early Gerrard success can be attributed to Beale more than Gerrard

[CVByrne]

5 hours ago, Villaphan04 said:

I wonder if we will see a 4-4-2 with Ollie and Ings up top in the future. 

Potentially, but I think Emery correctly assessed Ings is at his best running between two CBs and not on outside of them like Bailey and Watkins are. It's such a simple thing but he's 100% right.

So if Watkins and Ings were playing together up top I'd expect Bailey to play on Right Mid and be getting forward a lot so we've a more 3 up front, if we had Bunedia/Ramsey the other side moving centrally it's more a 4 2 3 1 type in attack