Team shape, tactics and personnel

[duke313]

5 minutes ago, MaVilla said:

Something emerys recent games have highlighted is just how important athleticism is.

When you see the speed and quick movement of many players, especially if you like to play higher up the pitch, you need the recovery speed, but also turn speed etc in our defensive line, one reason I think emery will like Carlos, Co patent on the ball but rapid also.

When you have players like Zaha, Bailey, Sarr etc etc, their ability to break at speed can really carve teams open.

I hope we buy a similar type player for our right side so we have genuine athletic threat on both sides of the pitch.

Tbh I would also like to see a forward in  a similar mould, the ability to break at speed with our front line means teams are much less likely to be able to pin you in your half, and are generally scared to over commit forward as you pose such a risk on the break.

Hopefully we are back in for Sarr in January.  Wasn't Emery a big admirer or Zaha when he was at Arsenal?

[MaVilla]

14 minutes ago, duke313 said:

Hopefully we are back in for Sarr in January.  Wasn't Emery a big admirer or Zaha when he was at Arsenal?

I read somewhere he wanted Zaha at arsenal instead of pepe.

Not sure if true though.

[Delphinho123]

Very unlikely Zaha will leave Palace for us. He will want to go to a top 6 club and play in Europe. He's good enough to do it too. 

[allani]

3 hours ago, MaVilla said:

Something emerys recent games have highlighted is just how important athleticism is.

When you see the speed and quick movement of many players, especially if you like to play higher up the pitch, you need the recovery speed, but also turn speed etc in our defensive line, one reason I think emery will like Carlos, Co patent on the ball but rapid also.

When you have players like Zaha, Bailey, sarr etc etc, their ability to break at speed can really carve teams open.

I hope we buy a similar type player for our right side so we have genuine athletic threat on both sides of the pitch.

Tbh I would also like to see a forward in  a similar mould, the ability to break at speed with our front line means teams are much less likely to be able to pin you in your half, and are generally scared to over commit forward as you pose such a risk on the break.

More importantly under UE, I can see how our midfield would be looking to exploit the pace of a quick forward - rather than just lumping long balls down the channel for them to chase.  Man Utd really struggled to cope with Ollie, Bailey and JJ running at them from different starting points and I can only see UE wanting to increase those options.

[allani]

3 hours ago, duke313 said:

Hopefully we are back in for Sarr in January.  Wasn't Emery a big admirer or Zaha when he was at Arsenal?

Is Sarr the answer?  I mean I think he has several of the attributes of the answer but I think UE will be looking for someone at a level up from there.  Just not sure that I see him as a player that will take us into the Top 8.  Would help us improve on 17th for sure but I am hoping that the Board will be looking to give UE longer term options (i.e. the foundations of a team to break through the top half rather than get us to mid-table).  We've had to cycle through iterations of players in most positions since getting promoted - I'm not sure that we want to have to do that too many more times.

Happy to be corrected if you / anyone thinks that I have missed something in my appraisal of Sarr.  At the risk of being patronising - he seems like more of a Palace signing than a Newcastle signing (i.e. a team looking to consolidate mid-table rather than a team looking to take on the Sly 6).  I know we are a long way from the Sly 6 at the moment but I really hope we've addressed the coaching / management issue and I do think we are only 2 or 3 signings away from giving our new manager the talent and balance in the squad to give it a proper crack.

[MaVilla]

19 minutes ago, allani said:

More importantly under UE, I can see how our midfield would be looking to exploit the pace of a quick forward - rather than just lumping long balls down the channel for them to chase.  Man Utd really struggled to cope with Ollie, Bailey and JJ running at them from different starting points and I can only see UE wanting to increase those options.

yeah, i can see us buying a winger who is pretty rapid and technically competent.

Can also see us looking to get a striker who is rapid so all our front players offer a threat on the break.

i also think he will look to upgrade the defensive line with at least one DC who can play a high line and has good recovery speed.

I can see Emery loving Carlos also, good on the ball and fast as heck (hope he still is after his injury).

[DJBOB]

Tactics vs players - goals 1/2/4 conceded are remarkably similar.

• Ball out wide
• Run in between the FB and CB
• Targeting of Chambers and the space between the FB and CB.
• Lack of decisiveness from Olsen

The 4132 box shape leaves this area exposed with the high line and it was dealt with poorly from a combination of Chambers/fullbacks and critically Olsen. I do believe that a more aware keeper would have cleared goal 1 and while there's not much he could about goal 2, Martinez would've claimed goal 4 easily. Crucially - Olsen never leaves his 6 yard box for any of these goals. Horror show.

I think the tactics were right, though dangerous against a team like United who have pace in behind. I'm only curious as to why Unai decided to change it when we had lots of success having United try cross after cross in the league game. Just goes to show that there's a lot of different tactics Unai can employ and while we held them at bay for numerous offside in the first half - I do think that we gambled for a bit too long - especially with the lead.

Edited November 11, 2022 by DJBOB

[allani]

1 minute ago, MaVilla said:

yeah, i can see us buying a winger who is pretty rapid and technically competent.

Can also see us looking to get a striker who is rapid so all our front players offer a threat on the break.

i also think he will look to upgrade the defensive line with at least one DC who can play a high line and has good recovery speed.

I can see Emery loving Carlos also, good on the ball and fast as heck (hope he still is after his injury).

Not sure we will buy a winger (at least in my old-fashioned way of considering that role) - more another player who will start from a wide position but try to attack the goal rather than the corner flag.  A mirror image of Bailey.  There to score goals rather than cross for a striker to bury. 

And yes I appreciate that is probably just down to me being a 50 year old "has been" who still remembers the role definitions of the 1980s and struggles to accept that the meaning might have changed!!!!!

[MaVilla]

5 minutes ago, allani said:

Not sure we will buy a winger (at least in my old-fashioned way of considering that role) - more another player who will start from a wide position but try to attack the goal rather than the corner flag.  A mirror image of Bailey.  There to score goals rather than cross for a striker to bury. 

And yes I appreciate that is probably just down to me being a 50 year old "has been" who still remembers the role definitions of the 1980s and struggles to accept that the meaning might have changed!!!!!

yeah, i didnt mean a "winger" in the 80/90s sense, i meant a winger who can operate as a winger, an inside forward or as an inside striker type (like Bailey......or Zaha, or Sarr etc etc).

[allani]

3 minutes ago, DJBOB said:

Tactics vs players - goals 1/2/4 conceded are remarkably similar.

• Ball out wide
• Run in between the FB and CB
• Targeting of Chambers and the space between the FB and CB.
• Lack of decisiveness from Olsen

The 4132 box shape leaves this area exposed with the high line and it was dealt with poorly from a combination of Chambers/fullbacks and critically Olsen. I do believe that a more aware keeper would have cleared goal 1 and while there's not much he could about goal 2, Martinez would've claimed goal 4 easily. Crucially - Olsen never leaves his 6 yard box for any of these goals. Horror show.

I think the tactics were right, though dangerous against a team like United who have pace in behind. I'm only curious as to why Unai decided to change it when we had lots of success having United try cross after cross in the league game. Just goes to show that there's a lot of different tactics Unai can employ and while we held them at bay for numerous offside in the first half - I do think that we gambled for a bit too long - especially with the lead.

I think he had one eye on keeping players fresh for Brighton at the weekend (our immediate priority is to get as far away from the relegation battle as we can as quickly as we can) and one eye on wanting to see as many players as possible play "for real" so that he can properly evaluate the squad.  Some players will step up (early nods to Digne, Bailey and Donks) and others have put bigger question marks on their futures.  I hope that by this time next year we will be in a very different position when we are balancing our priority for a cup run against maintaining our fight in the top half of the table and with a strong, balanced squad that allows more rotation and reduces the drop off between our "starters" and our "subs".

If we win at the weekend then I'd be happy to have had to "sacrifice" a strong chance of doing the Man Utd double in 4 days.  Similar if we get a draw but a strong performance.  The immediate focus has to be on coming back after the World Cup with an eye on what is above us in the table rather than worrying about how little in below us.  Thoughts on cup runs can wait.

[gwi1890]

5 hours ago, Delphinho123 said:

Very unlikely Zaha will leave Palace for us. He will want to go to a top 6 club and play in Europe. He's good enough to do it too. 

Don’t think he’ll ever leave palace that ship has sailed , quality player though.

[MWARLEY2]

Can we do something like this between now and the summer to start the 23/24 season 

Sell 

Ings 5 Watkins 20 Mings 10 Nakamba 3 McGinn 10 Traore 5 Coutinho 5 Olsen 1 Steer F Guilbert F Hause 2 

50 -60 mill

Buy 

Top Striker 40 

Top centre back 40 

Back up keeper 5 

 

Bailey      Striker        Buendia 

Davis      Archer        A Ramsey

 

J Ramsey      Kamara       Luiz

Sanson     Dendoncker   Iroegbunam

 

Digne        CB            Carlos        Cash

Young     Chambers   Konsa      Kesler 

                 Feeney 

                          Martinez

                               GK 

                          Sinisalo 

                

 If we are planning our future around the kids then **** it. Lets get them playing. 

And yes i am like a broken record but Davis and Archer as split strikers in Emerys system would be very interesting   . They would cause chaos. 

[CVByrne]

Match of the Day 2 had really good analysis of our defensive shape for the end of the game, a back 5 and sometimes a back 6 is McGinn was defending down his side. What's clear is how the defence all step forward when Brighton move ball back to play to the other side and Martinez (who is a much better sweeper than Olsen) steps forward to the penalty spot. Mings turns sideways so any balls over the top Martinez will get and/or Mings running back. Defensively aside from the mistake we were very good against Brighton.

Also in how we build from the back, Emery is clearly a smarter more experienced coach relative to Gerrard. Both want to build from the back, Gerrard wanted us to play short passes, beat the press and progress ball into our narrow 10s, easier said than done. Emery wants to trigger the opponents press (if they press high like Brighton do) and specifically the press on our 6s who run towards our own box to receive the ball and pass quickly to a CB or FB who then play the ball long and direct forward. What Emery wants is for space to be created by sucking their players into our 1/3rd of the pitch which opens up more space in the rest of the pitch for Ramsey and the two forwards to run into. It's quite simple for a team like us to execute and plays to strengths when we've Watkins / Bailey in the side due to their pace.

Our defensive shape means the two forwards block passes into midfield and when the ball goes wide it triggers the press. This is what Gerrard wanted to do but with the front 3 forcing ball wide in same way. We execute a mid block so the space is in behind our defence so pacy players attacking from wide areas will be a threat to us, it relies on Martinez in goal as the defence trust him and he's good positionally. It also plays to the strengths of Konsa and Mings who are quick CBs. Carlos is quick too and is excellent at the long direct switch passes so he will excel in this set up. 

I think we are a team who is set up very well for away from home. I do remain worried about us at home to sides who are in the bottom half and will execute a low block. We have struggled for years to break it down and needed Grealish really to do it. For those games I feel Buendia and Ings in the side are key, Buendia from a wide position and maybe Ings and Bailey up top (as Bailey can run at defenders and beat them which creates space). 

As the side are better drilled we will see improvements too. I hope the summer training camp lets Emery work on breaking down a low block, with lots of movements and quick passes.

[duke313]

6 minutes ago, CVByrne said:

Match of the Day 2 had really good analysis of our defensive shape for the end of the game, a back 5 and sometimes a back 6 is McGinn was defending down his side. What's clear is how the defence all step forward when Brighton move ball back to play to the other side and Martinez (who is a much better sweeper than Olsen) steps forward to the penalty spot. Mings turns sideways so any balls over the top Martinez will get and/or Mings running back. Defensively aside from the mistake we were very good against Brighton.

Also in how we build from the back, Emery is clearly a smarter more experienced coach relative to Gerrard. Both want to build from the back, Gerrard wanted us to play short passes, beat the press and progress ball into our narrow 10s, easier said than done. Emery wants to trigger the opponents press (if they press high like Brighton do) and specifically the press on our 6s who run towards our own box to receive the ball and pass quickly to a CB or FB who then play the ball long and direct forward. What Emery wants is for space to be created by sucking their players into our 1/3rd of the pitch which opens up more space in the rest of the pitch for Ramsey and the two forwards to run into. It's quite simple for a team like us to execute and plays to strengths when we've Watkins / Bailey in the side due to their pace.

Our defensive shape means the two forwards block passes into midfield and when the ball goes wide it triggers the press. This is what Gerrard wanted to do but with the front 3 forcing ball wide in same way. We execute a mid block so the space is in behind our defence so pacy players attacking from wide areas will be a threat to us, it relies on Martinez in goal as the defence trust him and he's good positionally. It also plays to the strengths of Konsa and Mings who are quick CBs. Carlos is quick too and is excellent at the long direct switch passes so he will excel in this set up. 

I think we are a team who is set up very well for away from home. I do remain worried about us at home to sides who are in the bottom half and will execute a low block. We have struggled for years to break it down and needed Grealish really to do it. For those games I feel Buendia and Ings in the side are key, Buendia from a wide position and maybe Ings and Bailey up top (as Bailey can run at defenders and beat them which creates space). 

As the side are better drilled we will see improvements too. I hope the summer training camp lets Emery work on breaking down a low block, with lots of movements and quick passes.

A pacy winger like Sarr would be lethal in this setup.

[Monkeypuzzle]

What was our actual formation at the start of the game yesterday?

[CVByrne]

50 minutes ago, Monkeypuzzle said:

What was our actual formation at the start of the game yesterday?

4 4 2 and switched to 4 2 2 2 / 4 2 3 1 in attack as Buendia a little deeper than Ings. 

[DJBOB]

4 hours ago, CVByrne said:

Match of the Day 2 had really good analysis of our defensive shape for the end of the game, a back 5 and sometimes a back 6 is McGinn was defending down his side. What's clear is how the defence all step forward when Brighton move ball back to play to the other side and Martinez (who is a much better sweeper than Olsen) steps forward to the penalty spot. Mings turns sideways so any balls over the top Martinez will get and/or Mings running back. Defensively aside from the mistake we were very good against Brighton.

Also in how we build from the back, Emery is clearly a smarter more experienced coach relative to Gerrard. Both want to build from the back, Gerrard wanted us to play short passes, beat the press and progress ball into our narrow 10s, easier said than done. Emery wants to trigger the opponents press (if they press high like Brighton do) and specifically the press on our 6s who run towards our own box to receive the ball and pass quickly to a CB or FB who then play the ball long and direct forward. What Emery wants is for space to be created by sucking their players into our 1/3rd of the pitch which opens up more space in the rest of the pitch for Ramsey and the two forwards to run into. It's quite simple for a team like us to execute and plays to strengths when we've Watkins / Bailey in the side due to their pace.

Our defensive shape means the two forwards block passes into midfield and when the ball goes wide it triggers the press. This is what Gerrard wanted to do but with the front 3 forcing ball wide in same way. We execute a mid block so the space is in behind our defence so pacy players attacking from wide areas will be a threat to us, it relies on Martinez in goal as the defence trust him and he's good positionally. It also plays to the strengths of Konsa and Mings who are quick CBs. Carlos is quick too and is excellent at the long direct switch passes so he will excel in this set up. 

I think we are a team who is set up very well for away from home. I do remain worried about us at home to sides who are in the bottom half and will execute a low block. We have struggled for years to break it down and needed Grealish really to do it. For those games I feel Buendia and Ings in the side are key, Buendia from a wide position and maybe Ings and Bailey up top (as Bailey can run at defenders and beat them which creates space). 

As the side are better drilled we will see improvements too. I hope the summer training camp lets Emery work on breaking down a low block, with lots of movements and quick passes.

Great write up. Clear that Unai is very flexible with his defensive positioning and assignments. Aside from the cup game, United and Brighton both looked frustrated trying to attack us which was great to see. I think fans will want to see entertainment but instead of the progressive, quick play that you see from City or Brighton - it’ll be much more of a rollercoaster with a very stern defense and then a mad house counter. 
 

I agree that I’m interested in seeing how we attack the Forests of the prem. Buendia will be key but I think he struggles too unlocking low blocks. He’s great in transition and when he can play through balls into space, which will suit him into Emery’s system well, but seems short of ideas or not on the same wavelength as others. I think that is part system but part that we are not built to break down low blocks. We have lots of utility midfielders and athletic forwards but few that can execute the quick one touches besides the Buendia-Ramsay-Ings combo.  

[Delphinho123]

4 hours ago, CVByrne said:

Match of the Day 2 had really good analysis of our defensive shape for the end of the game, a back 5 and sometimes a back 6 is McGinn was defending down his side. What's clear is how the defence all step forward when Brighton move ball back to play to the other side and Martinez (who is a much better sweeper than Olsen) steps forward to the penalty spot. Mings turns sideways so any balls over the top Martinez will get and/or Mings running back. Defensively aside from the mistake we were very good against Brighton.

Also in how we build from the back, Emery is clearly a smarter more experienced coach relative to Gerrard. Both want to build from the back, Gerrard wanted us to play short passes, beat the press and progress ball into our narrow 10s, easier said than done. Emery wants to trigger the opponents press (if they press high like Brighton do) and specifically the press on our 6s who run towards our own box to receive the ball and pass quickly to a CB or FB who then play the ball long and direct forward. What Emery wants is for space to be created by sucking their players into our 1/3rd of the pitch which opens up more space in the rest of the pitch for Ramsey and the two forwards to run into. It's quite simple for a team like us to execute and plays to strengths when we've Watkins / Bailey in the side due to their pace.

Our defensive shape means the two forwards block passes into midfield and when the ball goes wide it triggers the press. This is what Gerrard wanted to do but with the front 3 forcing ball wide in same way. We execute a mid block so the space is in behind our defence so pacy players attacking from wide areas will be a threat to us, it relies on Martinez in goal as the defence trust him and he's good positionally. It also plays to the strengths of Konsa and Mings who are quick CBs. Carlos is quick too and is excellent at the long direct switch passes so he will excel in this set up. 

I think we are a team who is set up very well for away from home. I do remain worried about us at home to sides who are in the bottom half and will execute a low block. We have struggled for years to break it down and needed Grealish really to do it. For those games I feel Buendia and Ings in the side are key, Buendia from a wide position and maybe Ings and Bailey up top (as Bailey can run at defenders and beat them which creates space). 

As the side are better drilled we will see improvements too. I hope the summer training camp lets Emery work on breaking down a low block, with lots of movements and quick passes.

Fine, but we cause ourselves all manner of problems by doing this and I can't say it doesn't frustrate me. We lose the ball so often playing this way and it's costs us two goals in two games. Possibly more, but I can't remember the passages of play for the United goals. 

Agreed that it's good to suck their midfielders towards our goal to create space in behind, we just need to make sure they don't score from us trying it!

[MarkLillis]

12 minutes ago, DJBOB said:
 

I agree that I’m interested in seeing how we attack the Forests of the prem. Buendia will be key but I think he struggles too unlocking low blocks. He’s great in transition and when he can play through balls into space, which will suit him into Emery’s system well, but seems short of ideas or not on the same wavelength as others. I think that is part system but part that we are not built to break down low blocks. We have lots of utility midfielders and athletic forwards but few that can execute the quick one touches besides the Buendia-Ramsay-Ings combo.  

I think the key to breaking down low blocks is patient consistent probing and passing into dangerous areas.

The block will constantly defend this and we have to win it high and fast and put the pressure immediately back on to the defence.

Its not down to one specific player although I agree the more technically gifted our players are the better.

[duke313]

1 minute ago, MarkLillis said:

I think the key to breaking down low blocks is patient consistent probing and passing into dangerous areas.

The block will constantly defend this and we have to win it high and fast and put the pressure immediately back on to the defence.

Its not down to one specific player although I agree the more technically gifted our players are the better.

We haven't faced a low block yet under UE.  Be interesting to see how we cope with balls over the top, as we were constantly getting undone in the United Cup game by them.  Most were caught offside, but it only takes one not to be off-side,