Team shape, tactics and personnel

[TRO]

5 hours ago, Radness said:

I wasn’t having a go, just found myself breathing funny, maybe I enjoyed your posts more than I thought

by all means have a go.....I am not perfect.

back on track....

Just watching the Sky sports analysis on Villa last night.....it makes me revisit, some of my own thoughts.

We all have our own personal thoughts on how the game should be played, but an openness, to alternative views is sometimes stimulating, not stifling.

Edited May 14 by TRO

[CVByrne]

2 hours ago, alreadyexists said:

This graphic is being bandied about on Twitter a lot, and many rival fans are saying it clearly means we’re lucky and that we’ll drop off next season. My question is for those more in to stats than myself… what does distance, pressures, etc, actually mean? And why is that a bad thing if we’re clearly performing well and we’re likely to be 4th. Sorry for sounding stupid but it all sounds like an NFL stats analysis to me. Stats are only useful when they predict an outcome, but if they don’t like they don’t here, then what’s the point?

They never said in the analysis it was bad. The key is that the sides that have played with a high line combine it with a high press as that condensed the field to be smaller meaning it is better for the pressing. The objective is to get high turn overs to attack from. 

What we do is completely different. We are not pressing to get high turnovers we are set up to conserve energy. Our offside trap is there to entice opposing teams to play through balls or over the top and we have a brave approach where we don't drop off we step forward when opposing team are looking to pass it through. 

This gives us control. We then reset and build up in possession. Last season we were controlling games by drawing lots of tactical fouls. They changed rules a bit to stop refs giving such easy free kicks this season so we don't use as much. 

For us we focus on positional and organised block defence. We stop teams attacking centrally and allow them wide and then we then press or entice the ball through for an offside or for Martinez to sweep. 

Emery is bringing tactical flexibility and a focus on game specific plans. We will do more high pressing (like we did Vs City in our win) when we have the squad and players for it. People forget how we started the season with Kamara pressing high against Liverpool and it failed badly. Emery adapts and we'll see more evolution next season 

Edited May 14 by CVByrne

[PieFacE]

How do we go back to being solid at the back? We look so vulnerable. 

 

[CVByrne]

2 minutes ago, PieFacE said:

How do we go back to being solid at the back? We look so vulnerable. 

It's the loss of Kamara and the knock on impact of that. We were defensively most solid when we had 3 CMs in the team, say Kamara, Luiz and McGinn. With one player in Kamara sitting deeper. We also suffer from loss of Mings from set piece defence. 

[holtend4life]

For me, Emery is playing the statistics with the high line. What is the percentage of the opposition successfully playing a through ball on time to their forward who's also on time with their run to stay onside whilst also having VAR making sure it has to be timed perfectly? Very low. This punditry about high risk, high reward with the high line is why they are pundits and not high calibre coaches. It's not high risk; granted it needs a high level of concentration and drilling into players to play it but to say it's high risk is well, quite the opposite. If anything it's much higher risk for the opposition to attempt balls to break the line.  

[Tomaszk]

5 hours ago, alreadyexists said:

This graphic is being bandied about on Twitter a lot, and many rival fans are saying it clearly means we’re lucky and that we’ll drop off next season. My question is for those more in to stats than myself… what does distance, pressures, etc, actually mean? And why is that a bad thing if we’re clearly performing well and we’re likely to be 4th. Sorry for sounding stupid but it all sounds like an NFL stats analysis to me. Stats are only useful when they predict an outcome, but if they don’t like they don’t here, then what’s the point?

None of those top four "matter" when it comes to winning a game. The only one you can argue is pressures as it covers the whole pitch, closing a man down. We close in the areas we should. We could get better at it. Can get better at everything.

But hey. City at home? Brighton at home? Arsenal away? When the plan is to press. We can press. It's a tactic not to. Do I understand it? Not particularly. Unai is cleverer than me.

[DJBOB]

Alex has a good bit on the why behind the stats and the problems (particularly with Kamara injured)

I agree with a lot of it and the next of iteration of Villa already has some hints on the fullbacks they’re targeting. Athletic fullbacks that can absorb a lot of the 1v1 pressure. Cash, Konsa and Digne have done admirably but Unai is targeting a certain type. The Kamara replacement has been beat to death. 
 

 

[CVByrne]

15 minutes ago, DJBOB said:

Alex has a good bit on the why behind the stats and the problems (particularly with Kamara injured)

I agree with a lot of it and the next of iteration of Villa already has some hints on the fullbacks they’re targeting. Athletic fullbacks that can absorb a lot of the 1v1 pressure. Cash, Konsa and Digne have done admirably but Unai is targeting a certain type. The Kamara replacement has been beat to death. 
 

 

Covers a lot of the same points I made, so agree with  most of what he's saying. 

In the Transfer thread I said we will likely go with a CB at LB next season and play a player like Diaby ahead in LM. We can then sign an attacking RB to give the width on the other side. 

This can allow a back 3 of Pau, Mings, Konsa which has the right balance. There will be plenty of tactical evolution to come from Emery and this team. 

[TRO]

4 hours ago, CVByrne said:

They never said in the analysis it was bad. The key is that the sides that have played with a high line combine it with a high press as that condensed the field to be smaller meaning it is better for the pressing. The objective is to get high turn overs to attack from. 

What we do is completely different. We are not pressing to get high turnovers we are set up to conserve energy. Our offside trap is there to entice opposing teams to play through balls or over the top and we have a brave approach where we don't drop off we step forward when opposing team are looking to pass it through. 

This gives us control. We then reset and build up in possession. Last season we were controlling games by drawing lots of tactical fouls. They changed rules a bit to stop refs giving such easy free kicks this season so we don't use as much. 

For us we focus on positional and organised block defence. We stop teams attacking centrally and allow them wide and then we then press or entice the ball through for an offside or for Martinez to sweep. 

Emery is bringing tactical flexibility and a focus on game specific plans. We will do more high pressing (like we did Vs City in our win) when we have the squad and players for it. People forget how we started the season with Kamara pressing high against Liverpool and it failed badly. Emery adapts and we'll see more evolution next season 

I agree with that. We are playing a style that suits the squad profile we have.

I say, don't be surprised if we change, when we recruit in the summer.

[nepal_villan]

Wasn't sure where to post this but when will this "tired" team get to rest? Most of our squad will be at the EUROS and Copa America this summer.  Looking at our squad list - the only prominent players that won't be involved are Carlos, Digne, Moreno and Ramsey - one or two of who might not even come back next season.

 

*I'm not including the long-term injuries as I presume they are "rested"

Edited May 14 by nepal_villan

[TomC]

On 14/05/2024 at 09:37, DJBOB said:

The Kamara replacement has been beat to death. 

Only because it's true.

 

[Alakagom]

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5512054/2024/05/22/fifa-offside-trials-ifab

FIFA calls on football’s lawmakers to push ahead with offside trials

Seems inevitable this change will happen sooner than later, wonder how it affects Emery's strategy as in the trials so far, predictable, offside traps are far less effective. 

[T-Dog]

On 14/05/2024 at 08:24, alreadyexists said:

This graphic is being bandied about on Twitter a lot, and many rival fans are saying it clearly means we’re lucky and that we’ll drop off next season. My question is for those more in to stats than myself… what does distance, pressures, etc, actually mean? And why is that a bad thing if we’re clearly performing well and we’re likely to be 4th. Sorry for sounding stupid but it all sounds like an NFL stats analysis to me. Stats are only useful when they predict an outcome, but if they don’t like they don’t here, then what’s the point?

Many others have answered this much better than I can already - but for what it's worth....

Being 20th in anything in the league doesn't mean we're the worst, it just means we a lot different in our approach to other teams, and with respect, teams we've probably beaten this season. 

There's a widely "expected" way for the top clubs to play, and although I think most of what we do is similar, there's also a lot different. Klopp's Liverpool have always been high intensity, high pressing. City similar but a lot of possession play too. Arsenal I haven't seen enough of. But Unai doesn't have just one way to play, every game there are subtle nuances to match the opposition we're playing. 

At the end of the day, I'd be quite happy being 20th in all the stats and finishing 4th, than being top of all the stats and finishing 17th.

[T-Dog]

Also - Sky have history in providing somewhat dubious data visuals and stats. Not to say those numbers aren't right, but there's a few instances in the past where they've tried used graphics that don't fit conventional data standards.

Source: Worked in Data Vis for 15 years.

[MaVilla]

4 hours ago, Alakagom said:

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5512054/2024/05/22/fifa-offside-trials-ifab

FIFA calls on football’s lawmakers to push ahead with offside trials

Seems inevitable this change will happen sooner than later, wonder how it affects Emery's strategy as in the trials so far, predictable, offside traps are far less effective. 

 

it will completely wreck offside.

tbh, i wonder if it will have the same effect as the golden goal, in the sense that you can be offside by so much, and still be onside, that there is zero incentive for a team to push up the pitch, and many teams, even the bigger ones, will then rely on sitting deep and not letting any players in behind, due to the huge margins allowed to still be onside.

it will make the game less watchable i reckon, more teams sitting deep and not over committing forward.

less goals conceded, less scored, and less risks taken.

Edited May 22 by MaVilla

[Anything11]

It was clear by the end of the season that we were not pressing with anywhere near the intensity or commitment as we were at the begining. I believe this is due to injuries/tiredness and the loss of Kamara and is why we began conceding more. It puts more pressure on the backline and on the team defensively as a whole - we were relying on the midblock most of the time.

[CVByrne]

8 hours ago, T-Dog said:

Many others have answered this much better than I can already - but for what it's worth....

Being 20th in anything in the league doesn't mean we're the worst, it just means we a lot different in our approach to other teams, and with respect, teams we've probably beaten this season. 

There's a widely "expected" way for the top clubs to play, and although I think most of what we do is similar, there's also a lot different. Klopp's Liverpool have always been high intensity, high pressing. City similar but a lot of possession play too. Arsenal I haven't seen enough of. But Unai doesn't have just one way to play, every game there are subtle nuances to match the opposition we're playing. 

At the end of the day, I'd be quite happy being 20th in all the stats and finishing 4th, than being top of all the stats and finishing 17th.

The stats just describe how we play.

We do not press in the final third we move to a mid block and force opponents wide and that triggers our press in mid third. We have a very high line which compresses the filed and means there is less ground to cover, so no high press and very high line means short distances between players and less running. Hence we are low on distance covered. The aim is to win possession back via offside or via pressing in mid third when opponents try play through us. When in low block the team focus on keeping structure and the spaces between the players and not try to press to get the ball back as that opens up space. 

It's clearly visible this is our tactical approach and it worked very well. What is really interesting is how we adapt tactically for the opposition, for example at home to City we had a high press game which caught them out. Emery knew we can't allow city free time to build up as they will control the game and pick us apart eventually. Then for Bournemouth who go man to man press we sat much deeper so as to draw them onto us and create space behind them to counter through via direct and quick play. 

This is Emery, have a team capable of different tactical game plans depending on situations and opponent. What he needs to execute it is a deep squad with the different attributes and profiles. We need those players to remain fit also as our form dropped off last season as our injuries mounted.

I think we will see more high press added to the game plan next season with the right personnel added. It is the added skill needed to control and dominate the lower teams more than we have last season. 

I can't wait to see Emery next tactical evolution. I think we might see us adding more attacking width and we will need to improve our defensive approach also. 

 

[Bazmonkey]

On 14/05/2024 at 08:24, alreadyexists said:

This graphic is being bandied about on Twitter a lot, and many rival fans are saying it clearly means we’re lucky and that we’ll drop off next season. My question is for those more in to stats than myself… what does distance, pressures, etc, actually mean? And why is that a bad thing if we’re clearly performing well and we’re likely to be 4th. Sorry for sounding stupid but it all sounds like an NFL stats analysis to me. Stats are only useful when they predict an outcome, but if they don’t like they don’t here, then what’s the point?

With my coaching hat on.  I know stats can be misleading and interpreted in different ways but these quite compelling.  I have said for a number of months we are so passive as a team and its a risky way of playing.

Now you could look at it saying, we have had that many injuries we cant just run around all game as players that were already burnt out would have never made it to March, let alone end of the season.

For me, as a coach, If I was playing a high line there has to be some sort of pressure applied either from the from attack minimal and/or midfield and we never have done that.

We tend to sit high and hope for 'offside', does it work...yes....sometimes..is it risky....absolutely....using the Palace game.....it only take one not to be quite there and its a goal.

With all the injuries I would have hoped for a more conservative back line....a bit deeper...to take away that 50/50 onside/offside completely out.

We have seen it when teams have come to us....they sit a bit deeper....force us wide...we barely get a look in.  We need to do the same.

As a defensive UNIT we are so open its amazing....our wingers get forced back....oppo's can run 30 yards before a hint of pressure and that's usually down to them running out of space rather than being pressed.  Fullbacks 100% guilty of this!!!

So what happens when we do win it....we very rarely win it back in the middle third going forward...its usually in final third/middle third boundary having most of the time had to run back to do so....we win it but because we are effectively playing backwards we then end up going back to the keeper further back and then playing from there...the high turnover stat is due to the oppo then going from attack to defending but with a press...we have struggled to then play from our own third.   from a settled position we have looked good...but the transition from defence to attack is often poor with high turnover simply due to the passiveness and high line combination.

We also allow to many crosses...too many shots and too much space for players to run in.....its high risk with little reward as shown in the amount of goals we conceded this season.

Having said all that...I do think there is an element to not having all players available to implement a better press but....and its a minor but of Emry.....we should at times been more PROACTIVE than REACTIVE.

Going into next season we have shown going forward we are good...very good...we need to be more tighter...sometimes just shut the door....press higher..so that we dont have defend the final third as much....eliminate the threat higher up the pitch rather than on our own 18 years line. 

 

[DaoDeMings]

12 hours ago, MaVilla said:

 

it will completely wreck offside.

tbh, i wonder if it will have the same effect as the golden goal, in the sense that you can be offside by so much, and still be onside, that there is zero incentive for a team to push up the pitch, and many teams, even the bigger ones, will then rely on sitting deep and not letting any players in behind, due to the huge margins allowed to still be onside.

it will make the game less watchable i reckon, more teams sitting deep and not over committing forward.

less goals conceded, less scored, and less risks taken.

I agree. Offside trap is an interesting tactic and gives variety to the game. I don't know why they insist on making changes for the sake of it.

[MarkLillis]

On 14/05/2024 at 11:04, holtend4life said:

For me, Emery is playing the statistics with the high line. What is the percentage of the opposition successfully playing a through ball on time to their forward who's also on time with their run to stay onside whilst also having VAR making sure it has to be timed perfectly? Very low. This punditry about high risk, high reward with the high line is why they are pundits and not high calibre coaches. It's not high risk; granted it needs a high level of concentration and drilling into players to play it but to say it's high risk is well, quite the opposite. If anything it's much higher risk for the opposition to attempt balls to break the line.  

High risk maybe is if we fail to get it right there is a big chance of conceding?