Team shape, tactics and personnel

[DJBOB]

On 03/01/2024 at 11:01, TRO said:

There are plus points, absolutely no doubt, but we have to remember, we are competing with thinkers, now.

I accept the plus points of the highline, but it doesn't help at set pieces, where we are called upon to defend our goal. I also think we have to keep ourselves sharp at defending, never know when you need it, catching them offside, won't always come to the rescue as we experienced at Old Trafford.

I think we have out grown the notion of the low block....but we also at the same time, must appreciate the possible ease of scoring, when opponents breach the high line.....is all about percentages of advantages v disadvantages.

The only discomfort, I have is,  accepting that goal scoring is so difficult...once the highline is breached, and the opponent is on side, the rewards are a bit too easy for my liking....it kinda plays in to the hands of teams who want to play the high intensity, "get after you" game as we saw with Man U.

To play the highline, with success, you have to negate the ball over the top, and we all know the kind of approach, that requires......and Standing off, is not it.

 

 

 

10 hours ago, kurtsimonw said:

I do agree with this. As successful as the high line and general approach has been, standing off is what gives the opposition the very small window where successful chances can be created.

Beating a high line with the ball being short enough that Emi doesn't just lap it up is hard enough. A bit more pressing essentially makes it impossible.

I would challenge everyone to re-think the concept of high line = high press. It goes against the conventional wisdom of the English game but we will not see this under Unai to the level that Liverpool, Spurs or other teams apply to it. We are a clear outlier in terms of this high line - low press and  it has to do with the timing of these traps and what Unai is trying to force opponents to do - which is to purposefully play these low percentage passes and avoid them getting into a rhythm of attacks. We have by far the fewest tackles in the final third of the pitch as we do not press high after losing the ball generally speaking.

We are also clear outliers in terms of pressing and possession. Even though we possess the ball a fair amount, we do not counter-press high after losing it - preferring to drop back into shape rather than get over extended.

And for the umpteenth time, the high line is not why we lost against United, Forest, drew against Bournemouth or Wolves.

 

 

 

Edited January 4 by DJBOB

[DJBOB]

All this to say - if you're expecting Villa to become Liverpool then you will continue to be disappointed.

Whether this medium press- high line remains viable going forward is a good question but it also challenged my way of thinking about the high line and I'm finally seeing the light to what Unai is trying to do with this tactic.

[MotoMkali]

I do think a large reason for not pressing is because we don't have the depth to absorb absences in midfield or even really the depth to be having to make subs at 60 minutes for Luiz or Kamara every game. I think if we had 1 more defensive midfielder who we trusted we'd probably be more willing to press high. 

[kurtsimonw]

6 hours ago, DJBOB said:

 

I would challenge everyone to re-think the concept of high line = high press.

 

I think you were misunderstanding what I was saying, potentially. We're definitely not a high press team, I was suggesting that we often don't even press at all, which allows the opposition unopposed balls over the top, United had a lot of success as a result. I'm not even saying I'd like us to press as a team, definitely not. A one man 'press' to te ball is enough disruption at times, even if there's no intent to win it back but half heartedly cose someone down and make them think.

[TRO]

21 hours ago, DJBOB said:

 

I would challenge everyone to re-think the concept of high line = high press. It goes against the conventional wisdom of the English game but we will not see this under Unai to the level that Liverpool, Spurs or other teams apply to it. We are a clear outlier in terms of this high line - low press and  it has to do with the timing of these traps and what Unai is trying to force opponents to do - which is to purposefully play these low percentage passes and avoid them getting into a rhythm of attacks. We have by far the fewest tackles in the final third of the pitch as we do not press high after losing the ball generally speaking.

We are also clear outliers in terms of pressing and possession. Even though we possess the ball a fair amount, we do not counter-press high after losing it - preferring to drop back into shape rather than get over extended.

And for the umpteenth time, the high line is not why we lost against United, Forest, drew against Bournemouth or Wolves.

 

 

 

Interesting, That pressing Data chart, fits in nicely, with my " eye test" of all those teams

No matter, what explanation is offered, for those games, you have mentioned in your last line,  someone will cancel it, with their own explanation.

The fact remains, we conceded more goals in 2 of those games, than we scored, and in the other 2 conceded as many as we scored.

by the powers of deduction, as the figures show, in the league table, our ability to score, is better than our ability to defend...even in games, we have won, sloppy goals have been conceded, rendering the game nervy.

Folk will have their own opinions, why that is, and they will vary.....I don't think the opinion of we concede too easily, will be so varied.

you say, its not the highline...in isolation, I tend to agree......but rarely does one element cause an outcome...other disciplines to accompany the highline need to be executed, as you have mooted.

I  think you have a point about the tackles in the final third, only McGinn seems to do it, and we miss that, when he plays centre mid, covering for others.

It doesn't matter to us, why we conceded the goals in that manner, ( thats a concern for the manager)what does matter to us, is that we do.

I don't share the notion, that it's a trade off...i.e you concede, more because you score more......consistently Top teams have a handle on both.

I trust Unai to get it right, but its not quite right yet, despite our lofty position in the table.

Its all WIP onward and upward.

Edited January 5 by TRO

[TRO]

21 hours ago, DJBOB said:

All this to say - if you're expecting Villa to become Liverpool then you will continue to be disappointed.

Whether this medium press- high line remains viable going forward is a good question but it also challenged my way of thinking about the high line and I'm finally seeing the light to what Unai is trying to do with this tactic.

Many top managers have a way of working.....and it usually involves the best players.....but in the cold light of day, the team with the most points, wins the league.....They all have their way of getting the final outcome.

Now that may be irritatingly simplistic, to some....but its a fact.....and the more we gravitate to facts, and deviate from opinions, the less likely we are to irritate folk.

I am telling myself this, by the way, not aiming it at you.

Its clear to me that in the last 5 seasons the team with the best GD wins the league, Only in 2019-20 did Liverpool make the exception and Man City finishing second had a better GD

We all accept that the team who scores the most, is much of the way there, to the top prizes.....but the teams who concede the least, have an awful big say in things too.

I don't accept doing one, without the other will take you to the holy grail, albeit, there are always the odd exceptions.

In conclusion, my view is fwiw.....keep on scoring, but we have to tighten up at the back, with one of the worlds best keepers, we should be doing better.

Ps even when we have won games convincingly, we have conceded to sloppy goals, and make it nervy....we have to eradicate this in time and be more hard nosed.

 

Edited January 5 by TRO

[Tom13]

We don't have much depth when it comes to creativity.

[Farlz]

Unai needs to figure out a way of playing against a low block because we struggle.

Things might be different if we had a Youri/Buendia fit but no one else in our squad fits that profile and it's rough. 

[MaVilla]

2 minutes ago, Tom13 said:

We don't have much depth when it comes to creativity.

Fixed it for you....

[Adam2003]

6 minutes ago, Tom13 said:

We don't have much depth when it comes to creativity.

Not seeing this take personally… we aren’t on fire right now but I’d say we have more attacking options than I can remember at any time in 35 years watching. And the fact we have scored more goals than anyone in the league except Man City suggests it’s going ok over the course of the season so far…

[Tom13]

6 minutes ago, Adam2003 said:

Not seeing this take personally… we aren’t on fire right now but I’d say we have more attacking options than I can remember at any time in 35 years watching. And the fact we have scored more goals than anyone in the league except Man City suggests it’s going ok over the course of the season so far…

You said attacking options, I said creativity. Lately, we're not creating many clear cut chances at all. Tielemans a big miss.

[Tayls]

I’m concerned with how we have played in the last 5 games… 

[Adam2003]

8 minutes ago, Tayls said:

I’m concerned with how we have played in the last 5 games… 

Not at our best but for a neutral perspective, here is how Andy Brassell at the Guardian (probably one of the more knowledgable journalists in the game) saw today:

”Middlesbrough never really looked quite like forcing a shock win over high-flying Aston Villa but the fact that squeezing out a draw would have felt like an achievement, when it would have been just a solid Premier League result in years gone by, says a lot for the Birmingham club’s current stature. Matty Cash’s late winner, a shot from range wickedly deflected home off the substitute Emmanuel Latte Lath, also spoke of Villa’s pomp. It had the scent of a big side finding a way to get it done, someway, somehow, when Unai Emery’s team selection had suggested a dilemma in how to approach a tricky tie and increasing demands from week to week.”

[DJBOB]

I think the next stage of Unai’s evolution is combatting these low blocks. I didn’t watch enough of his time at Arsenal or PSG but these consistent low blocks are definitely being used more against us as a top side now.
 
Boro were in a similar 532/523, shielding the double pivot and forcing play out wide to our single wingers. 
 
Forcing a one side overload or adding a 6th player to the final attacking line are things he should experiment with if he thinks a side is going to set up like they do against us now like they do vs City/Arsenal.  

[Farlz]

[Marka Ragnos]

3 hours ago, DJBOB said:

I think the next stage of Unai’s evolution is combatting these low blocks. I didn’t watch enough of his time at Arsenal or PSG but these consistent low blocks are definitely being used more against us as a top side now.
 
Boro were in a similar 532/523, shielding the double pivot and forcing play out wide to our single wingers. 
 
Forcing a one side overload or adding a 6th player to the final attacking line are things he should experiment with if he thinks a side is going to set up like they do against us now like they do vs City/Arsenal.  

 

2 hours ago, Farlz said:

Unfortunately, most tactics for defeating the low block are themselves super well known by opposition coaches, and their players simply don't take the bait and fall for standard methods of stretching the block or tempting players to move wide. Emery knows all this already, obviously. He's a bit beyond the "This Is How To Break Down the Bus" School of Football Tactics. 

But that said, this is a process of coach and players learning together. I think we'll improve as we get more experience and training. Emery sees the problem.

So what are some less conventional (though also widely known) approaches to the bus?

1) Innovative set pieces

2) long-range shots

I don't think it's any coincidence we won the game today because of a (deflected) long-ranger from Cash. We need to make those kinds of shots without depending on the opposition's arses to deflect. Still, I suspect the biggest way team's beat it is just capitalising on those lucky, hard-won moments of finding a momentary space in front of goal and not missing the shot.

[DJBOB]

1 hour ago, Marka Ragnos said:

 

Unfortunately, most tactics for defeating the low block are themselves super well known by opposition coaches, and their players simply don't take the bait and fall for standard methods of stretching the block or tempting players to move wide. Emery knows all this already, obviously. He's a bit beyond the "This Is How To Break Down the Bus" School of Football Tactics. 

But that said, this is a process of coach and players learning together. I think we'll improve as we get more experience and training. Emery sees the problem.

So what are some less conventional (though also widely known) approaches to the bus?

1) Innovative set pieces

2) long-range shots

I don't think it's any coincidence we won the game today because of a (deflected) long-ranger from Cash. We need to make those kinds of shots without depending on the opposition's arses to deflect. Still, I suspect the biggest way team's beat it is just capitalising on those lucky, hard-won moments of finding a momentary space in front of goal and not missing the shot.

Arsenal bought Havertz for this reason, to have more of a back post presence from crosses to break down these low blocks. 
 
City have long used corners and set pieces to break down these low blocks as well as an increase in cut backs to Rodri at the top of the 18. 
 
It is a process to learn and a mismatch of personnel (no Buendia and Tielemans or Pau) makes this a real chore right now. 

[DakotaVilla]

9 hours ago, Tayls said:

I’m concerned with how we have played in the last 5 games… 

I’m not particularly concerned. It was a horrendous fixture list from December and add on the suspensions and injuries to Pau and Tielemans who are critical to our build up meant that after Brentford the team was heavily rotated. The team were also running on empty.

Assuming Pau and Tielemans are back for Everton we should see a better performance. Hopefully with Everton at home they won’t go for the low block or at the very least the home fans get on their back if that’s the tactic they deploy. 

 

[Stevo985]

I can’t believe we’re over a year into Emery’s reign, sitting second in the table, with one of the best defensive records and goal differences in the league… and people are still questioning the high line

Edited January 7 by Stevo985

[ChesterDad]

10 hours ago, Stevo985 said:

I can’t believe we’re over a year into Emery’s reign, sitting second in the table, with one of the best defensive records and goal differences in the league… and people are still questioning the high line

I don’t think anyone intends this to be a criticism of Unai at all, but equally I can understand that some people do not like the anxiety provoking moments that the high line induces at times