Team shape, tactics and personnel

[Rustibrooks]

30 minutes ago, CarryOnVilla said:

You’ve come up with a good answer, but you’re still guessing. This is what I’m fearing… that no one is sure what Gerrard ball is, even Stevan Gerrard. 

 

 

Yeah it’s the closest thing I can think of when it comes to a style we currently have. I agree that I’m still yet to really put a finger on what our style is at this point. 
 

Maybe this could be the foundation, before trying to look more attractive on the pitch. In my opinion we have far too many quality forward players for us not to play in an attractive way.

Edited July 31, 2022 by Rustibrooks

[CarryOnVilla]

4 minutes ago, Rustibrooks said:

Yeah it’s the closer thing I can think of when it comes to a style we currently have. I agree that I’m still yet to really put a finger on what our style is at this point. 
 

Maybe this could be the foundation, before trying to look more attractive on the pitch. In my opinion we have far too many quality forward players for us not to play in an attractive way.

I agree, the creativity of Phil and Lil Emi, is something we should be tactically building around for our offensive play. Backed up with a well drilled defensive play 

[OutByEaster?]

I think the foundation pretty much now is established. 

We'll play Emi and a back four with Luiz and Kamara in front of them.

I think everyone except the two centre halves picks themselves - I've gone with Carlos and Mings.

Unless Iroegbunam is absolutely pulling up trees in training or one of the two deeper midfielders gets injured (ir we buy another one) I don't see this changing at all.

----------------------------Martinez----------------------------

Cash----------Carlos-------------Mings----------Digne

------------------Kamara------------Luiz----------------------

But the four remaining space are really difficult - I think Gerrard prefers a third midfielder who can drop in with Kamara and Doug and get forward to help out too, and I think most often that'll be McGinn - but you're then looking at three from Bailey, Coutinho, Buendia, Ramsey, Ings and Watkins and those are tough choices - both in terms of the quality of those players and the way in which you lay them out tactically - finding the right three and the right blend is really difficult.

For me, right now it's:

----------------------------Martinez----------------------------

Cash----------Carlos-------------Mings----------Digne

---------------Kamara-------------------Luiz-------------------

------------------------------McGinn-----------------------------

Bailey------------------------------------------------Coutinho

-----------------------------Watkins-------------------------------

With Ramsey, Ings and Buendia on the bench.

 

Bailey's form will dictate whether Emi comes in to replace him and we narrow up the two wide positions - Watkins and Ings is a toss up, either could easily start.

 

[Tomaszk]

We don't have anyone out wide except the full backs. That's what he wants. It doesn't work obviously, but it's what the manager wants to do.

Where on earth he's got it from I don't know. Liverpool do so so many long balls punted over the full backs head. Salah or Diaz running onto it. Width opens teams up, it's uncomfortable, no one likes playing against it. We've been so pleasant to play against under Gerrard.

Hope he figures it out.

[MrBlack]

2 hours ago, OutByEaster? said:

So how do you get him in there without unbalancing things?

For me, the only natural way to do ti is by dropping Coutinho and I can't see that happening.

He could maybe play ahead of Bailey on the right in a 4-3-3, but he never seems as effective in that spot.

The only other option is next to Coutinho in a 4-3-2-1 - but McGinn struggles in that formation if he has to play in a more withdrawn way and we've looked vulnerable in that shape.

You answered your own question. 

 

Drop Coutinho in current 4312 shape:

   Ings    Watkins

       Buendia

 McGinn   Luiz

        Kamara

 

4-3-2-1 with McGinn further forward:

            Ings

Coutinho    Buendia

          McGinn

  Kamara    Luiz 

 

We haven't tried these options. We've tried the top with Coutinho.

And we've kind of tried the bottom with Watkins instead of Ings, and Luiz and McGinn both in front of Kamara playing the defensive 8 roles we use. 

I feel like this is something blatant that Gerrard hasn't tried, and now that Bailey has found form it's another excuse for him to be used in place of Buendia and we'll be a worse team for it, or at least a less possession based team anyway.

I rate Bailey though, and bringing him on at 60 minutes after Buendia has pressed and harried the opposition to death would be our golden ticket.

Just my thoughts at the moment. And I don't think we've seen the starting line up for Bournemouth yet, I think Gerrard has been disguising his intentions so we shall see!

Edited July 31, 2022 by MrBlack

[Tomaszk]

27 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

I think the foundation pretty much now is established. 

We'll play Emi and a back four with Luiz and Kamara in front of them.

I think everyone except the two centre halves picks themselves - I've gone with Carlos and Mings.

Unless Iroegbunam is absolutely pulling up trees in training or one of the two deeper midfielders gets injured (ir we buy another one) I don't see this changing at all.

----------------------------Martinez----------------------------

Cash----------Carlos-------------Mings----------Digne

------------------Kamara------------Luiz----------------------

But the four remaining space are really difficult - I think Gerrard prefers a third midfielder who can drop in with Kamara and Doug and get forward to help out too, and I think most often that'll be McGinn - but you're then looking at three from Bailey, Coutinho, Buendia, Ramsey, Ings and Watkins and those are tough choices - both in terms of the quality of those players and the way in which you lay them out tactically - finding the right three and the right blend is really difficult.

For me, right now it's:

----------------------------Martinez----------------------------

Cash----------Carlos-------------Mings----------Digne

---------------Kamara-------------------Luiz-------------------

------------------------------McGinn-----------------------------

Bailey------------------------------------------------Coutinho

-----------------------------Watkins-------------------------------

With Ramsey, Ings and Buendia on the bench.

 

Bailey's form will dictate whether Emi comes in to replace him and we narrow up the two wide positions - Watkins and Ings is a toss up, either could easily start.

 

They key thing here is that for sustained good performances, Gerrard has to drop Coutinho or McGinn.

Let's see what he does.

[OutByEaster?]

32 minutes ago, Tomaszk said:

We don't have anyone out wide except the full backs. That's what he wants. It doesn't work obviously, but it's what the manager wants to do.

Where on earth he's got it from I don't know. Liverpool do so so many long balls punted over the full backs head. Salah or Diaz running onto it. Width opens teams up, it's uncomfortable, no one likes playing against it. We've been so pleasant to play against under Gerrard.

Hope he figures it out.

I read you first sentence and was going to disagree - and oddly enough, the first system I thought of to demonstrate that full backs out wide works was Liverpool's.

Alexander-Arnold and Robertson are where Liverpool get most of their width from, with Salah and Diaz running the channels and helping out - I think that's exactly the way Gerrard has been looking at in the last couple of pre-season games for us, with Cash and Digne providing the width and Bailey and Coutinho supporting them - it's a system that suits Bailey more than Coutinho because of his pace - but I'm not sure I'd be in favour of dropping Coutinho for the next best fit, which would be Watkins I suppose.

Anyways, I agree, our width is largely supplied through the full backs, that's what he wants. I'd disagree that it doesn't work, it works for some of the better teams in this league and it's very much the pattern of modern football - I think we can be successful with it if we get the blend of players in the middle right.

 

[sne]

Having the full backs high up becomes a problem when you are not good at keeping possession and when you are not good at the high press and winning the ball back early.

We have both those issues sadly, or at least we did last season. Hopefully this season will be different.

[OutByEaster?]

16 minutes ago, Tomaszk said:

They key thing here is that for sustained good performances, Gerrard has to drop Coutinho or McGinn.

Let's see what he does.

Sorry, but I'd disagree again. I think the arrow shaped midfield of Luiz and Kamara with McGinn in front of them and Coutinho ahead of that and able to roam is our best one.

We have a difficulty then in that our best player in pre-season is a winger - so we either play an asymmetrical formation with one up front and one winger, or we push Coutinho wider where he's not as effective - if Bailey had been rubbish in pre-season then it'd simply be a choice between two up top or Buendia and one - Bailey is the fly in the ointment and he's given the manager that problem by being absolutely electric in the last couple of weeks.

 

[andym]

8 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

I read you first sentence and was going to disagree - and oddly enough, the first system I thought of to demonstrate that full backs out wide works was Liverpool's.

Alexander-Arnold and Robertson are where Liverpool get most of their width from, with Salah and Diaz running the channels and helping out - I think that's exactly the way Gerrard has been looking at in the last couple of pre-season games for us, with Cash and Digne providing the width and Bailey and Coutinho supporting them - it's a system that suits Bailey more than Coutinho because of his pace - but I'm not sure I'd be in favour of dropping Coutinho for the next best fit, which would be Watkins I suppose.

Anyways, I agree, our width is largely supplied through the full backs, that's what he wants. I'd disagree that it doesn't work, it works for some of the better teams in this league and it's very much the pattern of modern football - I think we can be successful with it if we get the blend of players in the middle right.

 

I disagree slightly, mainly as what we have been seeing generally under Gerrard is not what the likes of liverpool etc do.

As you note, they rely on width from both full backs and wide forwards - you try and nullify Salah, you are leaving room for TAA to exploit etc. They have full backs overlapping (which is not exactly a novel concept) and underlapping (see TAAs goal yesterday with ball switched out to salah who plays it inside for him to shoot). Its all about creating overloads from movement and switches, and they do it quick.

Too often last season, as @Tomaszk states, we had full backs isolated too high and wide, forced the ball out to them, and then expected them to do something while everyone else just stood and watched. It was slow, easy to defend, and left us vulnerable when we inevitiably lost the ball.

With the likes of countinho and buendia and with bailey now looking good, allied with the passing of kamara and luiz, on paper we have that smart, quick movement of both players and ball that the likes of liverpool demonstrate. Gerrard needs to find a way to get it happening regularly on the pitch.

 

 

 

 

[ZL-]

On 30/07/2022 at 14:52, MaVilla said:

we could defo play the 343/3421 type formation with the players we have.

We wont ofc tho......

What I found really interesting towards the end of the Rennes game was us going 3-5-2/5-3-2 to see out the game. Shifting Kamara back where he looked as comfortable as ever alongside our two existing CBs and bringing Tim on who I don't feel worried about stepping into the 6 role. We've complained about being married to the Christmas tree for too long and now I'm hearing complaints we don't know our best formation? I for one am enjoying the tactical flexibility we're seeing with 4-3-3, 4-3-1-2 and 3-5-2 all being showcased in pre-season in specific scenarios.

Overall the biggest takeaway for me pre-season outside of the shapes has been our switch to a possession based style, we seem to be focusing on dominating the ball far more - and seem far more capable of doing so with the additions of Carlos and Kamara. We still haven't got it perfect in terms of playing out of the back yet but a switch from years of counter attack pace and power under Smith will take time to unwind. It reminds me a bit of when Arteta took over Arsenal and wanted to implement a far more ball dominant playing style. There was a focus on the build up from the back at first, which came at a detriment to actual chances created (just like us right now) but once they became comfortable with the build up they slowly started to get more creative with the ball whilst not sacrificing any security.

Playing this way very well may highlight some deficiencies in some of our players that we've not seen before but it will require a 'trust the process' belief that Gerrard doesn't have the benefit of a FA cup in his first few months like Arteta did but the Rangers transformation on the CV means I will be happy to let this play out for the rest of this season.

[MaVilla]

18 minutes ago, ZL- said:

What I found really interesting towards the end of the Rennes game was us going 3-5-2/5-3-2 to see out the game. Shifting Kamara back where he looked as comfortable as ever alongside our two existing CBs and bringing Tim on who I don't feel worried about stepping into the 6 role. We've complained about being married to the Christmas tree for too long and now I'm hearing complaints we don't know our best formation? I for one am enjoying the tactical flexibility we're seeing with 4-3-3, 4-3-1-2 and 3-5-2 all being showcased in pre-season in specific scenarios.

Overall the biggest takeaway for me pre-season outside of the shapes has been our switch to a possession based style, we seem to be focusing on dominating the ball far more - and seem far more capable of doing so with the additions of Carlos and Kamara. We still haven't got it perfect in terms of playing out of the back yet but a switch from years of counter attack pace and power under Smith will take time to unwind. It reminds me a bit of when Arteta took over Arsenal and wanted to implement a far more ball dominant playing style. There was a focus on the build up from the back at first, which came at a detriment to actual chances created (just like us right now) but once they became comfortable with the build up they slowly started to get more creative with the ball whilst not sacrificing any security.

Playing this way very well may highlight some deficiencies in some of our players that we've not seen before but it will require a 'trust the process' belief that Gerrard doesn't have the benefit of a FA cup in his first few months like Arteta did but the Rangers transformation on the CV means I will be happy to let this play out for the rest of this season.

honestly, i thought Kamara looked better at CB than at DM, but ofc that may not translate to the more physical/pace of the PL.

[ZL-]

11 minutes ago, MaVilla said:

honestly, i thought Kamara looked better at CB than at DM, but ofc that may not translate to the more physical/pace of the PL.

We played some of our nicest build up with Kamara, Carlos, Feeney at the back and Iroegbunam ahead. Kamara, Carlos and one of Konsa/Chambers would be an insanely technical back 3 should we use it. 

Overall whilst Kamara didn't look out of place at CB, it'll take a few months for us to see him at his best as our 6 - a lot of play revolves already facilitating others and for that he'll have to learn where our other players like to receive the ball etc.

Was certainly an exciting dimension to add to our repetoire however, I can see it being a great formation for us to utilise KKH as he has a lot of wingback experience and we won't be risking his defensive faults as much as we would in a back 4.

[MaVilla]

10 minutes ago, ZL- said:

We played some of our nicest build up with Kamara, Carlos, Feeney at the back and Iroegbunam ahead. Kamara, Carlos and one of Konsa/Chambers would be an insanely technical back 3 should we use it. 

Overall whilst Kamara didn't look out of place at CB, it'll take a few months for us to see him at his best as our 6 - a lot of play revolves already facilitating others and for that he'll have to learn where our other players like to receive the ball etc.

Was certainly an exciting dimension to add to our repetoire however, I can see it being a great formation for us to utilise KKH as he has a lot of wingback experience and we won't be risking his defensive faults as much as we would in a back 4.

add Sanson to that in terms of "best play", when kamara was at CB, Feeney also, with Carlos, Timmy & Sanson, i thought we controlled the ball really well.

[DCJonah]

5 hours ago, andym said:

I disagree slightly, mainly as what we have been seeing generally under Gerrard is not what the likes of liverpool etc do.

As you note, they rely on width from both full backs and wide forwards - you try and nullify Salah, you are leaving room for TAA to exploit etc. They have full backs overlapping (which is not exactly a novel concept) and underlapping (see TAAs goal yesterday with ball switched out to salah who plays it inside for him to shoot). Its all about creating overloads from movement and switches, and they do it quick.

Too often last season, as @Tomaszk states, we had full backs isolated too high and wide, forced the ball out to them, and then expected them to do something while everyone else just stood and watched. It was slow, easy to defend, and left us vulnerable when we inevitiably lost the ball.

With the likes of countinho and buendia and with bailey now looking good, allied with the passing of kamara and luiz, on paper we have that smart, quick movement of both players and ball that the likes of liverpool demonstrate. Gerrard needs to find a way to get it happening regularly on the pitch.

 

 

 

 

Agreed. I thought it was a major issue last year and in some pre season games we've looked so narrow. 

Liverpool push full backs up the pitch but their attacking players offer width also. We don't have that part. 

I know at rangers he played with two number 10's but I've seen nothing that makes me like this approach since he's been here. 

I'm hoping the form of Bailey almost forces him to allow more width from the front 3.

[ZL-]

3 minutes ago, MaVilla said:

add Sanson to that in terms of "best play", when kamara was at CB, Feeney also, with Carlos, Timmy & Sanson, i thought we controlled the ball really well.

Agreed. Sanson seems to fit into this system a lot better, deserves to play a part this season.

On that note I feel there is the first actual competition for places for the 8 position. Before DL took up the 6 slot and Sanson was mostly not fit so McGinn and Ramsey were nailed on. With the addition of DL to one of the 8 slots and Sanson hopefully available for selection McGinn and Ramsey have a reason to compete now.

[Dillon66]

5 minutes ago, tinker said:

He's not going to be judged on just the Bournemouth result , but it will be an early indication on how it's going to go. He has put alot of faith in our new players hitting the ground running and for me it's a risky way to go. I think he will drop Ming's and can't see Beundia starting either, not sure about the midfield but Kamara will start and McGinn.

I hope Gomez doesn't get too excited as Bournemouth will target him and try and draw fouls.

I think we will win and this should give Gerrard the grounding to push on, I have had my doubts but he's impressed me with the captain change. If we are bottom half after 10 games and we are still sticking to the full backs being high up the pitch then questions should be asked. Until then he has my backing.

Who dat ?

[MrBlack]

1 hour ago, tinker said:

He's not going to be judged on just the Bournemouth result , but it will be an early indication on how it's going to go. He has put alot of faith in our new players hitting the ground running and for me it's a risky way to go. I think he will drop Ming's and can't see Beundia starting either, not sure about the midfield but Kamara will start and McGinn.

I hope Gomez doesn't get too excited as Bournemouth will target him and try and draw fouls.

I think we will win and this should give Gerrard the grounding to push on, I have had my doubts but he's impressed me with the captain change. If we are bottom half after 10 games and we are still sticking to the full backs being high up the pitch then questions should be asked. Until then he has my backing.

Kamara?

He didn't have much choice but to put faith in new signings. And knowing this, we bought them as early as was humanly possible once the transfer window opened. 

Overall sentiment spot on though.  He has a lot to do to win over those of us still on the fence.  Starting Buendia would go a long way to convincing me he's not picking names over form. 

 

[Vive_La_Villa]

8 minutes ago, MrBlack said:

Kamara?

He didn't have much choice but to put faith in new signings. And knowing this, we bought them as early as was humanly possible once the transfer window opened. 

Overall sentiment spot on though.  He has a lot to do to win over those of us still on the fence.  Starting Buendia would go a long way to convincing me he's not picking names over form. 

 

We don’t know what goes in in training though. He could be picking the players that train hardest, look sharpest.

If Buendia has a sub role but we are winning games is that problem? If on the other hand we go on a run of poor results and the same players that can play in Emi’s position aren’t performing and keep getting picked ahead of him Ill understand the complaints.

It’s all about the results end of the day. 

Edited August 3, 2022 by Vive_La_Villa

[VillaParkAvenue]

1 hour ago, Dillon66 said:

Who dat ?