Genie Posted October 11, 2020 Share Posted October 11, 2020 (edited) Many thousands of fans at the F1 in Germany. Grand stands not full and fairly well spaced out Google tells me 20,000 fans have been allowed in. Edited October 11, 2020 by Genie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted October 11, 2020 Moderator Share Posted October 11, 2020 6 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: What I'm saying is that when we think about the 'Lessons Learned' at the end of this, 'be more fortunate and take advantage of your fortune' may not be a very replicable lesson. Yeah, true. However what NZ did was right. Call it luck assisted or whatever, but it’s led to the least bad outcome for them. Some of what they did would also have been both possible and right for the UK, too. There will be other lessons from Germany, Sweden, China, South Korea... and of course from all the mistakes made in the UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted October 11, 2020 Share Posted October 11, 2020 Did many other countries incentivise people to do the exact kind of thing that created the first wave? Eat out to help out could have killed thousands of people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted October 11, 2020 Moderator Share Posted October 11, 2020 1 hour ago, Genie said: Did many other countries incentivise people to do the exact kind of thing that created the first wave? Eat out to help out could have killed thousands of people. Were all those people in care homes nipping down the pub and eating out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted October 11, 2020 Share Posted October 11, 2020 17 minutes ago, bickster said: Were all those people in care homes nipping down the pub and eating out? They are already dead at this point from wave 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted October 11, 2020 Moderator Share Posted October 11, 2020 1 minute ago, Genie said: They are already dead at this point from wave 1 The point was that pubs and restaurants didn't create the first wave and they haven't had a lot to do with the second wave either Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted October 11, 2020 Share Posted October 11, 2020 3 minutes ago, bickster said: The point was that pubs and restaurants didn't create the first wave and they haven't had a lot to do with the second wave either Why are they being closed across the UK then? There is no way pissed up people in close proximity without masks are not having a big impact. Look at the hundreds and hundreds of students who have all got it after a couple of weeks on the lash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted October 11, 2020 Moderator Share Posted October 11, 2020 12 minutes ago, Genie said: Why are they being closed across the UK then? Good Question, keep asking it because the government isn't following the stats or the science 12 minutes ago, Genie said: There is no way pissed up people in close proximity without masks are not having a big impact. How many pubs are really that packed? Impose sensible capacities (as most places had done anyway) 12 minutes ago, Genie said: Look at the hundreds and hundreds of students who have all got it (after a couple of weeks on the lash.) Cause and effect are wrong. Look at where students live, look at how they behave and interact. The assumption that it's because they've been on the lash in licenced premises is incorrect. First year students live in halls of residence (as do many later years now) in conditions that are that closely confined they'd be considered poor by third world standards. Shared kitchens / bathrooms etc The assumption that students are spreading it because they've gone for a drink is entirely misplaced. Not giving them somewhere to escape to might also be about to have the complete opposite effect. Students are more likely spreading it in halls, house parties etc. Lets be honest the average students sense of hygiene isn't great, they aren't renowned for wiping everything down after a meal and doing the washing up. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted October 11, 2020 Share Posted October 11, 2020 I don’t understand the defence of pubs. If you think about it then they are a perfect storm for virus transmission. Many governments around the world, and in the other countries of the UK are closing pubs down for that reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted October 11, 2020 Moderator Share Posted October 11, 2020 2 hours ago, Genie said: I don’t understand the defence of pubs. If you think about it then they are a perfect storm for virus transmission. Many governments around the world, and in the other countries of the UK are closing pubs down for that reason. Are they the perfect storm? Every Pub / Restaurant I know washes every glass and plates etc at high temperatures after every use, that doesn't even happen in a lot of households. Tables should be cleaned thoroughly after every occupation etc. I'm not saying they should be run as they were before the pandemic but I am saying they can be run relatively safely. If the capacities are reduced it might even save some of the ones that weren't doing so well by spreading the capacity about. Packed pubs are no good for anyone but sensibly run places with lower capacities inside and thorough constant cleaning can and should be opened. Pubs and restaurants were doing everything asked of them and doing it well in the main PHE stats even say this isn't where transmission is taking place (much). This government has even stopped saying it's following the science because it isn't, it's making knee jerk ill informed actions. Only an imbecile would have sent an entire cohort of students to live in the conditions they do and expected it to be alright. That MUST carry on but the pubs have to shut. Guess what, shutting the pubs will have little effect on transmission in the student populations, they'll still be living in cramped conditions with shared facilities, bad hygiene and poor diets, except now they'll just go down the offy and have block parties. When pubs were opened until they wanted to be, people just wobbled home at their own pace in their own time. Now.... 10pm and Boom, hundreds and thousands of people all on the streets at once. What this government is doing is exactly the wrong thing 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted October 11, 2020 Share Posted October 11, 2020 3 minutes ago, bickster said: Are they the perfect storm? Every Pub / Restaurant I know washes every glass and plates etc at high temperatures after every use, that doesn't even happen in a lot of households. Tables should be cleaned thoroughly after every occupation etc. I'm not saying they should be run as they were before the pandemic but I am saying they can be run relatively safely. If the capcities are reduced it might even save some of the ones that weren't doing so well by spreading the capcity about. Packed pubs are no good for anyone but sensibly run places with lower capacities inside and thorough constant cleaning can and should be opened. Pubs and restaurants were doing everything asked of them and doing it well in the main PHE stats even say this isn't where transmission is taking place (much). This government has even stopped saying it's following the science because it isn't, it's making knee jerk ill informed actions. Only an imbecile would have sent an entire cohort of students to live in the conditions they do and expected it to be alright. That MUST carry on but the pubs have to shut. Guess what, shutting the pubs will have little effect on transmission in the student populations, they'll still be living in cramped conditions with shared facilities, bad hygiene and poor diets, except now they'll just go down the offy and have block parties. When pubs were opened until they wanted to be, people just wobbled home at their own pace in their own time. Now.... 10pm and Boom, hundreds and thousands of people all on the streets at once. What this government is doing is exactly the wrong thing The university students returning in the way they have done has been an avoidable shambles. There was always going to be an uptick from living and learning conditions alone. If there’s hundreds and thousands of people leaving pubs en mass at 10pm it suggests that they are very busy and densely populated. I agree the 10pm curfew has made things worse, but it does also show just how many people are mingling. No social distancing No mask wearing No “rule of 6” Lots and lots of transmission onto walls, doors, handles, bars, people, bottles, glasses, straws, food. All in an environment where have had a few drinks behaving with less caution as you’d expect. It’s also a constantly changing population as people move from bar to bar. Wiping a table once an hour or putting the glasses through the washer is the thin end of the wedge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted October 11, 2020 Moderator Share Posted October 11, 2020 17 minutes ago, Genie said: If there’s hundreds and thousands of people leaving pubs en mass at 10pm it suggests that they are very busy and densely populated. No it doesn't, it suggests there are a lot of places emptying out at the same time 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted October 11, 2020 Moderator Share Posted October 11, 2020 Interesting thread on the current options 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted October 11, 2020 Share Posted October 11, 2020 (edited) 43 minutes ago, Genie said: The university students returning in the way they have done has been an avoidable shambles. There was always going to be an uptick from living and learning conditions alone. If there’s hundreds and thousands of people leaving pubs en mass at 10pm it suggests that they are very busy and densely populated. I agree the 10pm curfew has made things worse, but it does also show just how many people are mingling. No social distancing No mask wearing No “rule of 6” Lots and lots of transmission onto walls, doors, handles, bars, people, bottles, glasses, straws, food. All in an environment where have had a few drinks behaving with less caution as you’d expect. It’s also a constantly changing population as people move from bar to bar. Wiping a table once an hour or putting the glasses through the washer is the thin end of the wedge. Pubs opened a couple of months before schools and universities went back, and there was no discernible difference to infection or death rates. The measures the government has put in since (10pm curfew) have almost certainly made things worse rather than better, but this is a government that concerns itself with headlines and being seen to do something rather than effective policy. We'll see tens of thousands of people losing income, or perhaps their jobs entirely, because people assume pubs must be spreading the virus, despite a complete lack of evidence this is the case. Most pubs are incredibly low occupancy and social distancing is still being well enforced, with table service still required. Compare this to schools and unis, cramming people in, mostly with, at best, lip service to social distancing. Edited October 11, 2020 by Davkaus 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted October 11, 2020 Share Posted October 11, 2020 The 10pm is a complete own goal 100% agreed. I just don’t see how pubs (as in later night pubs that 18-30’s go to to get wankered) can’t be a problem. They embody pretty much everything we know about the transmission of the virus from person to person. We got the virus under control initially by social distancing, cleaning hands and surfaces, masks, reducing interactions with people outside of out bubble etc etc. Later night pubs are the exact opposite of what the science say we should be doing. We don’t need science to tell us that these places are a problem, we’ve all been in them and know what they are like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted October 11, 2020 Share Posted October 11, 2020 Have you been out late at night on a Friday or Saturday since they reopened, @Genie? I have a couple of times, and it is absolutely nothing like it was 7-8 months ago. There's none of the packed in like sardines shoulder to shoulder at the bar, and staff have been pretty on the ball when the odd person breaks the rules. I know you agree about the 10pm so I won't labour that point, but I get well the **** out of there before kicking out time if I go out now, because everyone flooding out at one time from every pub trying to get a taxi is a wholly unnecessary risk. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted October 11, 2020 Moderator Share Posted October 11, 2020 4 minutes ago, Genie said: I just don’t see how pubs (as in later night pubs that 18-30’s go to to get wankered) can’t be a problem. IF licencees can't adhere to the terms of their licence then they should have that priviledge removed from them They aren't supposed to serve pissed people as it is, it gets ignored but now it shouldn't 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted October 11, 2020 Share Posted October 11, 2020 Today in Worcester was the busiest I've seen it since early March by some margin. Traffic at 4pm was like rush hour on a Monday morning during term time pre-covid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted October 11, 2020 Share Posted October 11, 2020 3 hours ago, Genie said: Why are they being closed across the UK then? There is no way pissed up people in close proximity without masks are not having a big impact. Look at the hundreds and hundreds of students who have all got it after a couple of weeks on the lash. I think you overestimate the importance and effectiveness of a shitty paper mask to an airborne virus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seat68 Posted October 11, 2020 Share Posted October 11, 2020 4 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said: I think you overestimate the importance and effectiveness of a shitty paper mask to an airborne virus. One of a number of measures. Its clear, if people choose to place their entire faith in it, thats on them. Here we are in October still repeating this. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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