Generic Virus Thread

[Mic09]

2 minutes ago, Wainy316 said:

"Smart" anti-vaxxers need to take a look at the fact that every single far right frothing moron is also anti vax.  To name a few, Laurence Fox, Paul Joseph Watson, Candace Owens, Steve Bannon, Alex Jones, the list goes on.

Is this the side they want to be on?

Just because someone is pro/against something that I believe in (hypothetically) it doesn't invalidate my view.

I think you have hit the nail on the head - it's not about sides. Why does it have to be one or the other side? Can we stop dividing people like that?

I'm really tired of this team mentality - we are good, you are stupid. Labour/Conservative, Democrat/Republican, Pro Abortion/Anti Abortion, whatever the issue is.

There are many shapes, sizes, colours. Just because someone that I have no knowledge of (who the fu** is Paul Joseph Watson?) it doesn't invalidate my belief.

And I'm vaxxed up. 

[Genie]

1 hour ago, Mic09 said:

Just because someone is pro/against something that I believe in (hypothetically) it doesn't invalidate my view.

I think you have hit the nail on the head - it's not about sides. Why does it have to be one or the other side? Can we stop dividing people like that?

I'm really tired of this team mentality - we are good, you are stupid. Labour/Conservative, Democrat/Republican, Pro Abortion/Anti Abortion, whatever the issue is.

There are many shapes, sizes, colours. Just because someone that I have no knowledge of (who the fu** is Paul Joseph Watson?) it doesn't invalidate my belief.

And I'm vaxxed up. 

I agree that dividing for the sake of dividing is not good or healthy. 
The problem with regards to vaccination and those vocally against it and pushing their view on others is that this minority are negatively impacting the lives of the majority.

Lockdowns and lifestyle restrictions, businesses going bust, all the other stuff are connected to the ability of the NHS to cope, which is mainly down to how many unvaccinated people they have in hospitals who are sick. I know vaccinated are in hospital and dying too but the numbers are far smaller.

If 100% of the people eligible for a vaccine had it then I’m sure we’d have far fewer than 14,000 people (and rising) in hospital with covid now. Which also means the hospitals could instead be treating people with other illnesses more effectively.

Its not just like a religion thing where they aren’t doing any harm worshipping a lizard. 

Edited January 5, 2022 by Genie

[magnkarl]

5 minutes ago, Mic09 said:

Just because someone is pro/against something that I believe in (hypothetically) it doesn't invalidate my view.

I think you have hit the nail on the head - it's not about sides. Why does it have to be one or the other side? Can we stop dividing people like that?

I'm really tired of this team mentality - we are good, you are stupid. Labour/Conservative, Democrat/Republican, Pro Abortion/Anti Abortion, whatever the issue is.

There are many shapes, sizes, colours. Just because someone that I have no knowledge of (who the fu** is Paul Joseph Watson?) it doesn't invalidate my belief.

And I'm vaxxed up. 

No. There is no "right" on the anti-vax side in this debate. I wish people would stop regurgitating that. 

If you don't get vaccinated you increase the risk to yourself, our health system and to the chance of us developing new variants. 

If you don't have a medical reason not to take the vaccine then you're honestly just being stubborn and egotistical. EU wide the admissions are 60-70% in favour of unvaccinated, in example in the Nordics where the unvaccinated constitutes about 7% of the adult population. These 7% are essentially keeping Norway and Denmark in pandemic style social lockdown where kids are not allowed to do sports, go to school and everything social is heavily regulated. Is that fair?

If, like me, you're anywhere near your 50-60's, you've already been vaccinated under a mandated programme for Polio, Mumps and a whole host of other illnesses. Stop crying and get on with it.

[StefanAVFC]

7 hours ago, TheAuthority said:

Talking to a friend who's wife works in ICU.

33 old, healthy guy just died on her from Omicron. She didn't believe he'd be very bad as he had no co-morbidities, but he went down hill really, really fast and they couldn't save him. It really shocked her. But he didn't believe in vaccines.

He leaves a wife and 2 kids. The youngest is 10 months old.

Really sad to hear.

The one I've been hearing about is blood oxygen. You can feel totally normal but have around 85-90% (normal is over 95%)  and you can be going downhill rapidly without knowing it.

We bought a blood oxymetre for around a tenner. I'd advise everyone to do the same.

[desensitized43]

4 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

No. There is no "right" on the anti-vax side in this debate. I wish people would stop regurgitating that. 

If you don't get vaccinated you increase the risk to yourself, our health system and to the chance of us developing new variants. 

If you don't have a medical reason not to take the vaccine then you're honestly just being stubborn and egotistical. EU wide the admissions are 60-70% in favour of unvaccinated, in example in the Nordics where the unvaccinated constitutes about 7% of the adult population. These 7% are essentially keeping Norway and Denmark in pandemic style social lockdown where kids are not allowed to do sports, go to school and everything social is heavily regulated. Is that fair?

If, like me, you're anywhere near your 50-60's, you've already been vaccinated under a mandated programme for Polio, Mumps and a whole host of other illnesses. Stop crying and get on with it.

Do you think we'll reach a point where as a society we need to turn the screw on these people?

I'm not in favour of mandatory vaccination, unless you're a health and social care worker because that to me should be part of a condition for employment, but I do think that telling them they can't go to a pub, restaurant, football match, concert or fly would change some idiot minds.

[sidcow]

Just now, desensitized43 said:

Do you think we'll reach a point where as a society we need to turn the screw on these people?

I'm not in favour of mandatory vaccination, unless you're a health and social care worker because that to me should be part of a condition for employment, but I do think that telling them they can't go to a pub, restaurant, football match, concert or fly would change some idiot minds.

Macron certainly seems to be there right now from his comments.  That's pretty much exactly what he said.

[magnkarl]

2 minutes ago, desensitized43 said:

Do you think we'll reach a point where as a society we need to turn the screw on these people?

I'm not in favour of mandatory vaccination, unless you're a health and social care worker because that to me should be part of a condition for employment, but I do think that telling them they can't go to a pub, restaurant, football match, concert or fly would change some idiot minds.

I'm in favour of mandatory vaccinations, just like this country has been since the smallpox vaccine got invented. It's the role of the state to ensure the safety of its residents, and if 7% doesn't want to because they believe it's trackers, 5g, repitilian dna or whatever then we'll seriously need to consider enforcing harsher social rules for the unvaccinated.

It takes 15 minutes to fix. 15 minutes to get out of this effing !#¤#¤.

What's funny is that one of George Washington's first mandates was to have mandatory vaccinations. Tell this to one of the rabid anti-vax Americans 'patriots' and their head blows up.

[Genie]

15 minutes ago, desensitized43 said:

Do you think we'll reach a point where as a society we need to turn the screw on these people?

Ideally no, they need to be educated. The problem is fewer and fewer people trust what people like Boris Johnson say (with good reason).

[JoshVilla]

I think that the main opponent to introducing mandatory covid vaccines is that the mortality rate even before the vaccines were rolled out was around 1-2% overall? Polio, for example, gave a much higher rate of death and paralysis.  The same goes for Tuberculosis. In the majority of cases, younger people/people in generally good health will experience cold/flu like symptoms and then recover. That's why, I think, a lot of people are opposed.

The mortality rate obviously swings higher in the elderly and clinically vulnerable, which is why I think there is more likely to be regular jabs purely for that demographic going forward. 

[sidcow]

19 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

What's funny is that one of George Washington's first mandates was to have mandatory vaccinations. Tell this to one of the rabid anti-vax Americans 'patriots' and their head blows up.

Historians and the US Military records office are all in the pay of big pharma and Bill Gates.

 

[Mic09]

36 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

No. There is no "right" on the anti-vax side in this debate. I wish people would stop regurgitating that. 

 

Another topic worth looking at is what is an anti-vax side and how far are you on that scale. 

Am I anti vax if me, my wife, my 18 year old son got vaxxed up, but I am hesitant to vax my 2 year old? Do I belong to the loony tunes group?

Also, what if I already had covid - my protection is far higher than that of someone who hasn't had covid but is vaxxed up.**

What if I am double vaxxed, had covid, but oppose to having a booster due to my moral stance of securing vaccines for 3rd world countries? What's the point of jabbing up 10% of the world every 3-6 months if most of the world doesn't do it?

What if I got vaxxed up, and know of someone who had an undiagnosed heart condition and died of myocarditis 2 weeks after getting the jab? 

I guess (and I hope this is something everyone agrees with) it depend where we draw the boundaries of how far you want the jab policy pushed. There are many shades of grey between;

1. Vax everyone ever 3 months
2. Vax is a Bill Gates scheme to destroy the world.

So I disagree with you that it's a clear cut discussion. Especially as Omicron is a vaccine resistant strain to a far greater degree. 

** I think getting vaxxed up would improve their protection even more, but that doesn't negate the premise of the argument.
 

[Amsterdam_Neil_D]

7 hours ago, TheAuthority said:

Talking to a friend who's wife works in ICU.

33 old, healthy guy just died on her from Omicron. But he didn't believe in vaccines.

 

If you end up in hospital and you ae Anti-Vax,  surely they (anti-vax people) understand that medical staff will inject you or on a drip many combinations of drugs and treatments desperately trying to keep people alive.

Even untried and tested combinations I guess in the hope of saving someone's life when things go downhill fast as you reported.

The thing they don't want is drugs and medicine put in their body,  1 or 2 shots of Covid Vaccine could prevent 5, 10 or 20 different treatments if they end up in ICU ?

I don't understand.  

[magnkarl]

21 minutes ago, Mic09 said:

Another topic worth looking at is what is an anti-vax side and how far are you on that scale. 

Am I anti vax if me, my wife, my 18 year old son got vaxxed up, but I am hesitant to vax my 2 year old? Do I belong to the loony tunes group?

Also, what if I already had covid - my protection is far higher than that of someone who hasn't had covid but is vaxxed up.**

What if I am double vaxxed, had covid, but oppose to having a booster due to my moral stance of securing vaccines for 3rd world countries? What's the point of jabbing up 10% of the world every 3-6 months if most of the world doesn't do it?

What if I got vaxxed up, and know of someone who had an undiagnosed heart condition and died of myocarditis 2 weeks after getting the jab? 

I guess (and I hope this is something everyone agrees with) it depend where we draw the boundaries of how far you want the jab policy pushed. There are many shades of grey between;

1. Vax everyone ever 3 months
2. Vax is a Bill Gates scheme to destroy the world.

So I disagree with you that it's a clear cut discussion. Especially as Omicron is a vaccine resistant strain to a far greater degree. 

** I think getting vaxxed up would improve their protection even more, but that doesn't negate the premise of the argument.
 

Again, you are bringing anecdotal evidence to a debate on what's the right thing to do. If you know someone who has myocarditis from the vaccine he's one of soon 8 billion administered doses. Even if you are young you have a quite big chance of getting long covid. 

There's no scientific argument for not taking as many doses as the world health organisation suggests, at least. With two doses you have good protection, with three you have great protection.

Having had covid counts the same (within a certain time frame) as being vaccinated, so that's a non argument that alot of anti's keep posting.

You are very welcome to show peer reviewed evidence that having had covid provides more protection than the 94% protection that Moderna gives.

Worth mentioning was that my post was about the unvaccinated, not the 1 or 2 or 2 with covid, 1 with covid etc. that you want to discuss. You're 20 times more likely to be admitted to the ICU in Denmark if you're unvaccinated. That is a staggering figure which shows the futility of clinging onto whatever silly arguments the voluntarily unvaccinated have.

Edited January 5, 2022 by magnkarl

[Mic09]

2 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

Again, you are bringing anecdotal evidence to a debate on what's the right thing to do. If you know someone who has myocarditis out of the vaccine he's one of soon 8 billion administered doses. Even if you are young you have a quite big chance of getting long covid. 

There's no scientific argument for not taking as many doses as the world health organisation suggests, at least. With two doses you have good protection, with three you have great protection.

Having had covid counts the same (within a certain time frame) as being vaccinated, so that's a non argument that alot of anti's keep posting.

You are very welcome to show peer reviewed evidence that having had covid provides more protection than the 94% protection that Moderna gives.

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1

Quote

Conclusions This study demonstrated that natural immunity confers longer lasting and stronger protection against infection, symptomatic disease and hospitalization caused by the Delta variant of SARS-CoV-2, compared to the BNT162b2 two-dose vaccine-induced immunity.

Listen, I agree with you. Vast majority of people should get vaxxed up.  I just don't think it's black and white as you suggest. You do know that each country gives different advice than WHO? Are we backwards and anti vax because Professor Whitty does not suggest 4th dose starting today like Israelis do?

I am pro vaccine - but it's a complex issue of maaaaaany variables. Some people who are anti vax are plain stupid. Some people are asking questions such as 'should I jab my 12 month old son', and ridiculing these people does no one any good. 

[sidcow]

27 minutes ago, Mic09 said:

Also, what if I already had covid - my protection is far higher than that of someone who hasn't had covid but is vaxxed up.**

Just on this point, the vaccination provides much better protection against future infections than a past infection does.  This has been proved.  I don't understand it....science....but it does pay to get vaccinated even if you've already had it. I know you put a caveat in but the protection is really much better so I don't think that is a valid argument for anyone to use.

Sorry, I see you've posted a link to some study that contradicts that but that seems to be against pretty much every reporting I've seen on this issue.

Edited January 5, 2022 by sidcow

[bannedfromHandV]

Not had a jab but also not had the virus.

Theres folks here and beyond who are on their second rounds of having contracted the virus despite their self-righteous views having had the jabs. 
 

Maybe people should just take more care not to contract the virus as I do rather than banging on about the dangers of the unvaccinated as though we’re now some kind of lower human being.

Getting fking sick of it to be honest now, excuse the pun.

[magnkarl]

2 minutes ago, Mic09 said:

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1

Listen, I agree with you. Vast majority of people should get vaxxed up.  I just don't think it's black and white as you suggest. You do know that each country gives different advice than WHO? Are we backwards and anti vax because Professor Whitty does not suggest 4th dose starting today like Israelis do?

I am pro vaccine - but it's a complex issue of maaaaaany variables. Some people who are anti vax are plain stupid. Some people are asking questions such as 'should I jab my 12 month old son', and ridiculing these people does no one any good. 

I agree on the child bit, they're not who's clogging up our ICU's. What Israel does is their issue.

The issue is the unvaccinated adults with underlying causes who's raving about storming test centres, spreading misinformation and the idiots who believe in them.

The median age in the EU for unvaccinated admittals is 48. For vaccinated is 79. It's a no brainer to at least get two shots even if you don't agree with the booster.

 

[Mic09]

2 minutes ago, sidcow said:

Just on this point, the vaccination provides much better protection against future infections than a past infection does.  This has been proved.  I don't understand it....science....but it does pay to get vaccinated even if you've already had it.

I have literally just posted a study showing that although it's worth getting vaxxed for increased protection, natural immunity caused by the disease gives better protection in infection, symptomatic disease or hospitalisation.
 

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1

Quote

Conclusions This study demonstrated that natural immunity confers longer lasting and stronger protection against infection, symptomatic disease and hospitalization caused by the Delta variant of SARS-CoV-2, compared to the BNT162b2 two-dose vaccine-induced immunity.

 

[sidcow]

Just now, Mic09 said:

I have literally just posted a study showing that although it's worth getting vaxxed for increased protection, natural immunity caused by the disease gives better protection in infection, symptomatic disease or hospitalisation.
 

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1

 

Sorry, I just saw that and edited my post as you responded.  I've not seen this before but as I say it is contradictory to pretty much every reporting I've seen on this matter.

[magnkarl]

1 minute ago, bannedfromHandV said:

Not had a jab but also not had the virus.

Theres folks here and beyond who are on their second rounds of having contracted the virus despite their self-righteous views having had the jabs. 
 

Maybe people should just take more care not to contract the virus as I do rather than banging on about the dangers of the unvaccinated as though we’re now some kind of lower human being.

Getting fking sick of it to be honest now, excuse the pun.

What you do personally is totally anecdotal when the stats for the whole population shows that the unvaccinated spread the virus more for longer, get admitted younger, die younger, stay in the ICU's longer and generally **** up our health system. The minority that is the unvaccinated take up a much larger amount of beds than the vaccinated, it is chaos in the NHS which could be stopped with 15 minutes in the vaccine-station.

The friends you have who had covid with vaccines are much less likely to end up in the ICU's, so their infections are really much more irrelevant for the NHS.