Popular Post Stevo985 Posted June 10, 2021 VT Supporter Popular Post Share Posted June 10, 2021 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Panto_Villan said: So if you decided to promote racial equality by burning the British flag on the pitch at Wembley, anyone that boos you would be a racist? It's a nice principle but I don't actually think it works in practice, because it can be used to excuse literally anything. And I feel like it's a pretty common stance in this thread. That's a massive straw man though, because nobody is doing that. Burning the flag wouldn't be appropriate in many ways and it wouldn't be adopted by an entire professional league. This is players kneeling down briefly. A gesture that didn't start with BLM, was briefly adopted by them and now has no relation to them except for promoting roughly the same message, a message which anyone who isn't a word removed would be perfectly fine with. Edited June 10, 2021 by Stevo985 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted June 10, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted June 10, 2021 3 minutes ago, Panto_Villan said: Honestly I think you and many other people in this thread just subscribe to @Stevo985's views that intention is the only thing that matters. If you do literally anything intended to be anti-racist then anyone that disagrees with you is a racist, and you don't need to engage with their views. It's a stupid mindset that falls down as soon as you think about it for more than 5 seconds, but there you go. I think it's best if I leave you guys to it. That is a stupid mindset. Luckily literally nobody is saying that. So it's cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomav84 Posted June 10, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted June 10, 2021 5 minutes ago, Panto_Villan said: Kneeling was done by Colin Kaepernick in the NFL in 2016, In 2019 the rules were changed so players had to either stand on the pitch or remain in the dressing room for the anthem. Kneeling didn't become widespread until 2020 when there were massive marches in support of BLM after George Floyd's death, when millions of BLM supporters started taking the knee in support of BLM. Remember, prior to this it had only (recently) been done by a few athletes in the NFL and they were no longer doing it. It's definitely not a fringe viewpoint that kneeling as a gesture is linked to BLM. Putting the words BLACK LIVES MATTER on your football shirt also serves to link kneeling to BLM in my opinion. Yes, I've also said that how other people percieve your actions and words is just as important as what the intention behind them is. If that makes me as bad as the people booing the players at football matches, so be it. It's also a core tenant of modern anti-racist theory, but whatever. Honestly I think you and many other people in this thread just subscribe to @Stevo985's views that intention is the only thing that matters. If you do literally anything intended to be anti-racist then anyone that disagrees with you is a racist, and you don't need to engage with their views. It's a stupid mindset that falls down as soon as you think about it for more than 5 seconds, but there you go. I think it's best if I leave you guys to it. at the end of the day, it's not just people on this thread...its the vast majority and the 99% of the 10k at villa park applauding, totally drowning out the boos in addition to the widespread condemnation by the media has proven that. this is a battle that those booing will not win...the kneeling will continue, like it or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DakotaVilla Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 5 minutes ago, Panto_Villan said: Kneeling was done by Colin Kaepernick in the NFL in 2016, In 2019 the rules were changed so players had to either stand on the pitch or remain in the dressing room for the anthem. Kneeling didn't become widespread until 2020 when there were massive marches in support of BLM after George Floyd's death, when millions of BLM supporters started taking the knee in support of BLM. Remember, prior to this it had only (recently) been done by a few athletes in the NFL and they were no longer doing it. It's definitely not a fringe viewpoint that kneeling as a gesture is linked to BLM. Putting the words BLACK LIVES MATTER on your football shirt also serves to link kneeling to BLM in my opinion. Yes, I've also said that how other people percieve your actions and words is just as important as what the intention behind them is. If that makes me as bad as the people booing the players at football matches, so be it. It's also a core tenant of modern anti-racist theory, but whatever. Honestly I think you and many other people in this thread just subscribe to @Stevo985's views that intention is the only thing that matters. If you do literally anything intended to be anti-racist then anyone that disagrees with you is a racist, and you don't need to engage with their views. It's a stupid mindset that falls down as soon as you think about it for more than 5 seconds, but there you go. I think it's best if I leave you guys to it. It’s only a stupid mindset if you’re a racist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villalad21 Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 2 hours ago, tomav84 said: please provide evidence of the BLM organisation being the originators of the taking of the knee gesture...i've not seen this this referenced the BLM movement, not the organisation. 2 different things. stopping taking the knee means those booing will win. this is not going to happen. at VP for the chelsea game a small group booed...they were quickly drowned out with applause. they are very much in the minority and they will not win. the day will come when directors identify them in the crowd and their faces will be plastered across papers and the internet. jobs will be lost. these racist pricks will lose this battle, i guarantee it. Why is it so darn important to take the knee? They could wear t shirts before the game which said "There is no room for Racism" or "Let's kick racism out of football" It would carry the same message, you would have all the fans on side and you stop accociating yourself with BLM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post tomav84 Posted June 10, 2021 VT Supporter Popular Post Share Posted June 10, 2021 2 minutes ago, villalad21 said: Why is it so darn important to take the knee? They could wear t shirts before the game which said "There is no room for Racism" or "Let's kick racism out of football" It would carry the same message, you would have all the fans on side and you stop accociating yourself with BLM. they tried that...it was ignored and the abuse continued this has got people talking and for the last time, they are not associated with the BLM organisation FFS 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Davkaus Posted June 10, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted June 10, 2021 1 minute ago, tomav84 said: and for the last time, they are not associated with the BLM organisation FFS I guarantee you it's not the last time 6 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villalad21 Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 1 minute ago, tomav84 said: they tried that...it was ignored and the abuse continued But it would carry the same exact message and the booing would stop. Surely better than the alternative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post villa4europe Posted June 10, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted June 10, 2021 7 minutes ago, villalad21 said: Why is it so darn important to take the knee? They could wear t shirts before the game which said "There is no room for Racism" or "Let's kick racism out of football" It would carry the same message, you would have all the fans on side and you stop accociating yourself with BLM. Why should me or you decide what they should do? If the players want to take a knee because they think it's the best message then let them do it If you want to interpret that gesture incorrectly thats up to you If you purposefully want to associate the gesture to something that has repeatedly been denied and explained then that's also up to you Not sure why they should change what they're doing to placate people who aren't going to listen regardless 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villalad21 Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 (edited) 3 minutes ago, villa4europe said: Why should me or you decide what they should do? If the players want to take a knee because they think it's the best message then let them do it If you want to interpret that gesture incorrectly thats up to you If you purposefully want to associate the gesture to something that has repeatedly been denied and explained then that's also up to you Not sure why they should change what they're doing to placate people who aren't going to listen regardless I'm not deciding what they should do, just coming up with a reasonable asuggestion or alternative that would make the booing stop and would carry the same message. Most people associate taking the knee with BLM there is no way around it. Just like the swastika being associated with the Nazi party despite it having it's origins somewhere else. Edited June 10, 2021 by villalad21 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Davkaus Posted June 10, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted June 10, 2021 5 minutes ago, villalad21 said: But it would carry the same exact message and the booing would stop. Surely better than the alternative. I think putting the protest in people's faces and exposing the booers for what they are trumps something that's much easier to completely ignore, personally. If they decided to adopt a different gesture, I'd support it, but as a white bloke I'm damned if I'm going to tell a movement lead by people who are frequently the victims of racist abuse what an acceptable protest against it is. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post villa4europe Posted June 10, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted June 10, 2021 Just now, villalad21 said: I'm not deciding what they should do, just coming up with a reasonable alternative suggestion or alternative that would make the booing stop and would carry the same message. Most people associate taking the knee with BLM there is no way around it. Just like the swastika being associated with the Nazi party despite it having it's origins somewhere else. No they **** dont Racists who want this to stop so that they can carry on being racist associate taking a knee with BLM the political organisation Rational thinkers who want racism to stop think fair play to them I hope they continue, especially in the midst of the racists outing themselves Troll all you like over Bielsa and Leeds but this shit ain't funny 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 I'd love nothing more than to put a booer or two from VP in to a room with Mings to explain to him that he's supporting Marxism and should protest in a way that would be less controversial. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomav84 Posted June 10, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted June 10, 2021 6 minutes ago, villalad21 said: I'm not deciding what they should do, just coming up with a reasonable asuggestion or alternative that would make the booing stop and would carry the same message. Most people associate taking the knee with BLM there is no way around it. Just like the swastika being associated with the Nazi party despite it having it's origins somewhere else. not true..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a m ole Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 (edited) 29 minutes ago, villalad21 said: Why is it so darn important to take the knee? They could wear t shirts before the game which said "There is no room for Racism" or "Let's kick racism out of football" It would carry the same message, you would have all the fans on side and you stop accociating yourself with BLM. Because **** idiots are booing it. If it hadn’t been booed, the energy in the protest would have dissipated and they’d have stopped. Zaha said he was stopping because it felt an empty gesture, something I agreed with. That people are booing them shows they need to continue. They’re not associating themselves with BLMGN, you and the boo boys are. **** the fans if they don’t want to get on their side, they’re choosing the knee and telling you what it means. Edited June 10, 2021 by a m ole 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a m ole Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 20 minutes ago, villalad21 said: Most people associate taking the knee with BLM there is no way around it. Just like the swastika being associated with the Nazi party despite it having it's origins somewhere else. Excellent analogy. HEY HINDUS, **** BOOOOOOOOOOO YOU NAZIS, BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post OutByEaster? Posted June 10, 2021 Moderator Popular Post Share Posted June 10, 2021 58 minutes ago, Panto_Villan said: Honestly I think you and many other people in this thread just subscribe to @Stevo985's views that intention is the only thing that matters. If you do literally anything intended to be anti-racist then anyone that disagrees with you is a racist, and you don't need to engage with their views. It's a stupid mindset that falls down as soon as you think about it for more than 5 seconds, but there you go. I think it's best if I leave you guys to it. I think the idea that if you do "literally anything intended to be anti-racist then anyone who disagrees with you is a racist" is a fair point where what people are doing is something that is offensive or extreme - but that's absolutely not the case here, the players are kneeling in support of anti-racism, a gesture that has become associated with anti-racist protests over a number of years. I get that sometimes gestures and symbols get associated with specific groups, for this one, I think the nearest comparison is the association of the flag of St George with the National Front - ultimately, despite the efforts of a politically extreme group, most sensible normal people don't associate the national flag with extreme racism. I think its the same with the knee, any sensible person understands that the gesture and the very small political group aren't linked and that the wider promotion of the black lives matter movement is no more about extreme marxism than being British is about Britain first - there are tens of millions of people who believe in the black lives matter movement, I'd wager less than a couple of hundred are involved in the political group. It's just a daft argument, and one that's really difficult to see as genuine. Do the far right embrace the Flag of St George? Yes they do. Is it theirs? No it's not. The same is true of the knee and of the black lives matter movement versus the Black Lives Matter political party - that's obvious to most and for those that it's not, it's difficult not to see an underlying agenda at play. There's also the simple matter of good manners. A person may not agree with taking the knee, or might not agree with poppies, or might not agree with a minutes silence for a politician or a royal or a former owner, that's their right, but actively booing something is a further step, booing doesn't say I don't agree with this, it says I'm against this, I am placing myself in direct opposition to it. So for me, the silence of someone who has misgivings at the knee before games, because they mistakenly associate it with an extreme viewpoint, or because they dislike the mixture of symbolism and sport is one thing, I don't agree, but there's a dignity in it. Those that boo on the other hand are actually saying that they are against an anti-racism protest, in booing, you state a point of view and that point of view isn't discomfort, it's opposition - and whether by choice, intention or accident it means you're expressing a racist view. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a m ole Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 YOU TOO BUDDHA BOOOOOOOOOOO, HOW DARE YOU SUPPORT EUGENICS **** OFF YOU FAT **** BOOOOOOOOOOO FIND ANOTHER LOGO 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted June 10, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted June 10, 2021 49 minutes ago, villalad21 said: Why is it so darn important to take the knee? They could wear t shirts before the game which said "There is no room for Racism" or "Let's kick racism out of football" It would carry the same message, you would have all the fans on side and you stop accociating yourself with BLM. I assume you're ignoring my posts but I'll try again. It wasn't important to take the knee. It could have been any gesture. But they CHOSE to take the knee as their gesture. It is now getting booed. THAT alone is the reason to keep doing it. Changing it would be giving the racists what they want. If they'd chosen to hold hands instead then racists would have made something up about how that is communist or something and they'd be booing that instead. It's not about the knee. It's about what it represents. And anyone who claims it's because of marxism or whatever is just deflecting their racism Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villalad21 Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 1 minute ago, Stevo985 said: I assume you're ignoring my posts but I'll try again. It wasn't important to take the knee. It could have been any gesture. But they CHOSE to take the knee as their gesture. It is now getting booed. THAT alone is the reason to keep doing it. Changing it would be giving the racists what they want. If they'd chosen to hold hands instead then racists would have made something up about how that is communist or something and they'd be booing that instead. It's not about the knee. It's about what it represents. And anyone who claims it's because of marxism or whatever is just deflecting their racism Seem a bit counter productive. All you are achieving by persisting with this is making things worse not better. We can all be on different sides, worsening the relationship between players and fans or we can try to find a middle ground we can all be content with. I want to try to find a better alternative which will stop the booing and at the same time not remove the message. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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