ml1dch Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 3 hours ago, villalad21 said: I'm really concerned something nasty could happen if this thing doesn't stop. Surely not? Those fine, upstanding people booing are just peacefully demonstrating their objection to Marxism, which they definitely, definitely understand, remember? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Albrighton Posted June 10, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted June 10, 2021 Ah, I can see what the objectors are seeing now… 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rooster85 Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 9 hours ago, tom_avfc said: They’re not taking the knee in support of Black Lives Matter though. No? "Fans were asked: In some countries, professional football players and staff have chosen to kneel at the beginning of each game to show their support of the Black Lives Matter movement. Would you support or oppose professional players and staff in your country kneeling before each game in this fashion?" todays link: https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/12326458/taking-a-knee-football-fans-across-europe-asked-about-its-importance-and-if-they-support-it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 4 minutes ago, rooster85 said: No? "Fans were asked: In some countries, professional football players and staff have chosen to kneel at the beginning of each game to show their support of the Black Lives Matter movement. Would you support or oppose professional players and staff in your country kneeling before each game in this fashion?" todays link: https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/12326458/taking-a-knee-football-fans-across-europe-asked-about-its-importance-and-if-they-support-it Unsurprisingly sky are **** words removed Shit question that they know exactly what they're doing to generate the headline that they want rather than the actual story here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomav84 Posted June 10, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted June 10, 2021 16 minutes ago, rooster85 said: No? "Fans were asked: In some countries, professional football players and staff have chosen to kneel at the beginning of each game to show their support of the Black Lives Matter movement. Would you support or oppose professional players and staff in your country kneeling before each game in this fashion?" todays link: https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/12326458/taking-a-knee-football-fans-across-europe-asked-about-its-importance-and-if-they-support-it the point has been proven there...they reference the movement. no mention of the organisation BLM. they are 2 different things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomav84 Posted June 10, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted June 10, 2021 4 hours ago, villalad21 said: Taking the knee was something BLM came up with and started doing long before Floyd's death. please provide evidence of the BLM organisation being the originators of the taking of the knee gesture...i've not seen this 4 hours ago, villalad21 said: The players wore black BLM shirts in the start as well. You can't say this has nothing to do with BLM. this referenced the BLM movement, not the organisation. 2 different things. 4 hours ago, villalad21 said: Stop taking the knee and show awareness in another way that isn't referring to BLM and the booing will stop, I'm pretty sure. If this continues it will have no happy ending. Things will only get worse. The smart thing to do is to stop taking the knee. It's so easy to show support and awareness in a different way, this isn't worth. I'm really concerned something nasty could happen if this thing doesn't stop. stopping taking the knee means those booing will win. this is not going to happen. at VP for the chelsea game a small group booed...they were quickly drowned out with applause. they are very much in the minority and they will not win. the day will come when directors identify them in the crowd and their faces will be plastered across papers and the internet. jobs will be lost. these racist pricks will lose this battle, i guarantee it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junxs Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 20 hours ago, Panto_Villan said: Maybe there are some racists at the grounds, but I don't remember seeing much booing of the Kick It Out racism campaign that's been going on for years and years? Surely that would have been booed too if everyone was just a massive racist? There was no one moment that gave the opportunity for mass booing though. When the players take the knee for roughly 20 seconds it gives the racists a chance to collectively boo. How was a crowd supposed to collectively boo something that's just in the background? That's why you don't remember boos for kick it out 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Stevo985 Posted June 10, 2021 VT Supporter Popular Post Share Posted June 10, 2021 (edited) 5 hours ago, villalad21 said: Taking the knee was something BLM came up with and started doing long before Floyd's death. No it isn't. It was nothing to do with BLM. You're either terribly misinformed on this issue or you're deliberately spreading misinformation. Please educate yourself or stop. Or both. 5 hours ago, villalad21 said: The players wore black BLM shirts in the start as well. Yes they did. They have since very publicly distanced themselves from it 5 hours ago, villalad21 said: You can't say this has nothing to do with BLM. Yes you can 5 hours ago, villalad21 said: Stop taking the knee and show awareness in another way that isn't referring to BLM and the booing will stop, I'm pretty sure. If this continues it will have no happy ending. Things will only get worse. The smart thing to do is to stop taking the knee. It's so easy to show support and awareness in a different way, this isn't worth. I'm really concerned something nasty could happen if this thing doesn't stop. This is absolute bollocks. The smart thing to do would be to give the racists what they want? How is that smart? That's **** stupid Edited June 10, 2021 by Stevo985 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom_avfc Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 1 hour ago, rooster85 said: No? "Fans were asked: In some countries, professional football players and staff have chosen to kneel at the beginning of each game to show their support of the Black Lives Matter movement. Would you support or oppose professional players and staff in your country kneeling before each game in this fashion?" todays link: https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/12326458/taking-a-knee-football-fans-across-europe-asked-about-its-importance-and-if-they-support-it The Black Lives Matter movement is not the same as the Black Lives Matter organisation. I mean I guess I could understand the confusion between the two initially. However its been spelled out to people by players, managers and others involved in football on numerous occasions why the players are taking the knee. The fact that people continue to boo despite being told exactly why the players are taking the knee can only lead to the conclusion that these people don't believe in racial equality and therefore by definition are racist. Throwing out statements around Marxism and not letting politics get involved in football is a convenient barrier to hide behind but anybody who believes that that is what this is about is naive in the extreme in my opinion. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 5 hours ago, villalad21 said: Taking the knee was something BLM came up with and started doing long before Floyd's death. No it isn't. It was suggested by ex-serviceman, NFL player Nate Boyer. A white guy. And his thoughts on taking the knee. https://sports.yahoo.com/veteran-nate-boyer-taking-knee-225712406.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAHxnIXu4YWB7ojZgIFhHV-_L3f_nmK9AsgvTr7VTOHQdu6k9ZRdmN8np51XQ45rezR8kjHzrjLZo5CFiw5G2XfMV3YzKixXdv2Ss5BfyZafK6_IZ7BNHRM87Wp_STJwS97fV9-JwiMQeyxW0ui-s_R_-8NNSrhKv_4QFODEsB8fb Quote Army veteran Nate Boyer (who advised Colin Kaepernick on kneeling in silent protest of injustice and police brutality) reveals his perspective on national protests in the wake of George Floyd’s death, what Drew Brees can learn from his controversial statement condemning kneeling, the evolution of his own recognition of oppression in the U.S. and how Kaepernick’s 2016 gesture has impacted our society today. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panto_Villan Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 21 minutes ago, Junxs said: There was no one moment that gave the opportunity for mass booing though. When the players take the knee for roughly 20 seconds it gives the racists a chance to collectively boo. How was a crowd supposed to collectively boo something that's just in the background? That's why you don't remember boos for kick it out Yeah, that's a fair point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomav84 Posted June 10, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted June 10, 2021 5 minutes ago, tom_avfc said: The Black Lives Matter movement is not the same as the Black Lives Matter organisation. I mean I guess I could understand the confusion between the two initially. However its been spelled out to people by players, managers and others involved in football on numerous occasions why the players are taking the knee. The fact that people continue to boo despite being told exactly why the players are taking the knee can only lead to the conclusion that these people don't believe in racial equality and therefore by definition are racist. Throwing out statements around Marxism and not letting politics get involved in football is a convenient barrier to hide behind but anybody who believes that that is what this is about is naive in the extreme in my opinion. the thing is this has been said time and time again and people are just refusing to listen, including posters on here. the link between the organisation and the knee/movement is now ingrained into their heads and it's not budging. i dont know what the answer is but i for one am tired of saying the same thing over and over again to these people. they don't want to listen. are they just racists hiding behind a banner? some of them are for sure but i do like to give the benefit of the doubt where possible and i just think a lot just don't like admitting they might have made a mistake, and saying "you know what, i got this one wrong" maybe there will come a time where a club takes a stand and spells out the reasons for taking a knee within the stadium conditions of entry and that the knee must be respected, any that do not will be ejected. but that seems an extreme way to go and ideally clubs would want to avoid going down this path 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panto_Villan Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 3 hours ago, DakotaVilla said: Martin Luther King Took the knee in 1965. Colin Kapaernick took the knee again more recently after speaking with US Military veterans regarding a more respectful way to show his concern at the racial issues in the USA as opposed to not standing for the US anthem. The knee has nothing to do with BLM or Marxism or any other crap that disengenious racists are trying to link it to in order to de-legitimise the basic human request for racial equality. As for the request that the England players should show their support for anti-racism in a different way. Why should they? Why should the racists decide what is an appropriate way for well intentioned people to fight for anti-racism? Again, this is a terrible argument in my opinion. Here's the history of the swastika, but do you honestly think anyone would think wearing a swastika is anything other than a demonstration of support for the Nazi party, despite where it originated? Taking the knee has become associated with BLM because it was one of the main methods of protest used during the BLM George Floyd protests, when BLM first burst onto the scene in a big way. Interpretation of the gesture matters far more than origin. I'm not against the racist movement, I'm just anti-BLM specifically. I'm therefore not a racist, but I still percieve taking the knee as a political gesture because it became synonymous with BLM during the Floyd protests. The England team can say whatever they like about how it's not intended to be political, but it's still going to be percieved that way by those that dislike BLM - in the same way that wearing a swastika is going to be percieved as political by those that dislike the Nazis even if you genuinely wear it for the original non-Nazi reason, or how a white person saying "what I did wasn't intended to be racist" doesn't absolve them of all blame for racist actions. The problem with the arguments in this thread is that they are entirely circular: "We're doing a well-intentioned gesture to fight racism, and anyone who disagrees with that must be racist, and obviously I don't listen to the objections of racists so we don't need to change anything about it for any reason". If your starting point is that everyone that disagrees with you is a racist then there's not really any discussion to be had. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Stevo985 Posted June 10, 2021 VT Supporter Popular Post Share Posted June 10, 2021 10 minutes ago, Panto_Villan said: If your starting point is that everyone that disagrees with you is a racist then there's not really any discussion to be had. Anyone booing a gesture that intends to promote racial equality is, by definition, a racist. It's as simple as that to me. 7 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomav84 Posted June 10, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted June 10, 2021 2 minutes ago, Panto_Villan said: I'm not against the racist movement, I'm just anti-BLM specifically. I'm therefore not a racist, but I still percieve taking the knee as a political gesture because it became synonymous with BLM during the Floyd protests. The England team can say whatever they like about how it's not intended to be political, but it's still going to be percieved that way by those that dislike BLM - in the same way that wearing a swastika is going to be percieved as political by those that dislike the Nazis even if you genuinely wear it for the original non-Nazi reason, or how a white person saying "what I did wasn't intended to be racist" doesn't absolve them of all blame for racist actions. at the end of the day you have CHOSEN to associate it with the BLM organisation. you have basically just said that no matter what the players say, you are ignoring it. these are the ones performing the act, and you're admitting to just ignoring the reasons they are giving for doing it. as far as i'm concerned you're as bad as those booing. google the nazi party...the logo is a picture of a swastica. it's THEIR symbol, despite whatever origins it had. the BLM doesn't 'own' the knee as part of any logo or promotional material. again, people have just 'chosen' to associate taking of the knee with BLM because it was done during their protests. it's not THEIR symbol. it's a ludicrous comparison 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panto_Villan Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 2 minutes ago, Stevo985 said: Anyone booing a gesture that intends to promote racial equality is, by definition, a racist. It's as simple as that to me. So if you decided to promote racial equality by burning the British flag on the pitch at Wembley, anyone that boos you would be a racist? It's a nice principle but I don't actually think it works in practice, because it can be used to excuse literally anything. And I feel like it's a pretty common stance in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 7 minutes ago, Panto_Villan said: So if you decided to promote racial equality by burning the British flag on the pitch at Wembley, anyone that boos you would be a racist? This is just daft. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted June 10, 2021 Author Share Posted June 10, 2021 If you boo the knee for me then your a racist. If you keep bringing up marxism or the BLM movement as an excuse then you are an idiot as this connection has been removed for months Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panto_Villan Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 2 minutes ago, tomav84 said: at the end of the day you have CHOSEN to associate it with the BLM organisation. you have basically just said that no matter what the players say, you are ignoring it. these are the ones performing the act, and you're admitting to just ignoring the reasons they are giving for doing it. as far as i'm concerned you're as bad as those booing. google the nazi party...the logo is a picture of a swastica. it's THEIR symbol, despite whatever origins it had. the BLM doesn't 'own' the knee as part of any logo or promotional material. again, people have just 'chosen' to associate taking of the knee with BLM because it was done during their protests. it's not THEIR symbol. it's a ludicrous comparison Kneeling was done by Colin Kaepernick in the NFL in 2016, In 2019 the rules were changed so players had to either stand on the pitch or remain in the dressing room for the anthem. Kneeling didn't become widespread until 2020 when there were massive marches in support of BLM after George Floyd's death, when millions of BLM supporters started taking the knee in support of BLM. Remember, prior to this it had only (recently) been done by a few athletes in the NFL and they were no longer doing it. It's definitely not a fringe viewpoint that kneeling as a gesture is linked to BLM. Putting the words BLACK LIVES MATTER on your football shirt also serves to link kneeling to BLM in my opinion. Yes, I've also said that how other people percieve your actions and words is just as important as what the intention behind them is. If that makes me as bad as the people booing the players at football matches, so be it. It's also a core tenant of modern anti-racist theory, but whatever. Honestly I think you and many other people in this thread just subscribe to @Stevo985's views that intention is the only thing that matters. If you do literally anything intended to be anti-racist then anyone that disagrees with you is a racist, and you don't need to engage with their views. It's a stupid mindset that falls down as soon as you think about it for more than 5 seconds, but there you go. I think it's best if I leave you guys to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rooster85 Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 4 minutes ago, Zatman said: If you boo the knee for me then your a racist. If you keep bringing up marxism or the BLM movement as an excuse then you are an idiot as this connection has been removed for months 2 hours ago, tomav84 said: the point has been proven there...they reference the movement. no mention of the organisation BLM. they are 2 different things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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