Panto_Villan Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 (edited) 26 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said: I think the idea that if you do "literally anything intended to be anti-racist then anyone who disagrees with you is a racist" is a fair point where what people are doing is something that is offensive or extreme - but that's absolutely not the case here, the players are kneeling in support of anti-racism, a gesture that has become associated with anti-racist protests over a number of years. I get that sometimes gestures and symbols get associated with specific groups, for this one, I think the nearest comparison is the association of the flag of St George with the National Front - ultimately, despite the efforts of a politically extreme group, most sensible normal people don't associate the national flag with extreme racism. I think its the same with the knee, any sensible person understands that the gesture and the very small political group aren't linked and that the wider promotion of the black lives matter movement is no more about extreme marxism than being British is about Britain first - there are tens of millions of people who believe in the black lives matter movement, I'd wager less than a couple of hundred are involved in the political group. It's just a daft argument, and one that's really difficult to see as genuine. Do the far right embrace the Flag of St George? Yes they do. Is it theirs? No it's not. The same is true of the knee and of the black lives matter movement versus the Black Lives Matter political party - that's obvious to most and for those that it's not, it's difficult not to see an underlying agenda at play. There's also the simple matter of good manners. A person may not agree with taking the knee, or might not agree with poppies, or might not agree with a minutes silence for a politician or a royal or a former owner, that's their right, but actively booing something is a further step, booing doesn't say I don't agree with this, it says I'm against this, I am placing myself in direct opposition to it. So for me, the silence of someone who has misgivings at the knee before games, because they mistakenly associate it with an extreme viewpoint, or because they dislike the mixture of symbolism and sport is one thing, I don't agree, but there's a dignity in it. Those that boo on the other hand are actually saying that they are against an anti-racism protest, in booing, you state a point of view and that point of view isn't discomfort, it's opposition - and whether by choice, intention or accident it means you're expressing a racist view. Actually popped back into this thread because I've always found your posts interesting reading, so I thought I'd give your response a read. Overall I'm not sure how much we actually disagree here, to be honest. My actual view is and always has been that booing the players isn't acceptable, but football in general could have made this much easier for everyone if they'd picked a gesture that was less politically charged than kneeling. You're right that BLM doesn't "own" kneeling but surely you can't deny it's still a plausible interpretation of the gesture that, for example, linking arms in a show of unity does not have, right? And that printing the words "black lives matter" on their shirts when they first started kneeling probably made matters worse? Honestly, I'd be perfectly cool with the response "Yeah, this could have been handled a bit better but it doesn't justify the booing, does it?" because that's essentially my view too. I believe the players when they say they're protesting for generic anti-racism rather than BLM, but nonetheless I still think their choice of gesture could plausibly be associated with BLM no matter how often they come out and say that. It's a needless own goal in my opinion; if they're not supporting Black Lives Matter then they don't need to be tied to any specific gesture yet they chose the only one with potential to cause confusion. Unfortunately when people started stating with complete certainty that there is literally no way anyone could ever think taking the knee had anything to do with BLM, I probably should have guessed it was going to end with me being called a racist and checked out earlier. Edited June 10, 2021 by Panto_Villan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted June 10, 2021 Moderator Share Posted June 10, 2021 5 minutes ago, villalad21 said: We can all be on different sides, worsening the relationship between players and fans or we can try to find a middle ground we can all be content with. A sort of acceptable amount of racism? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villalad21 Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 Just now, OutByEaster? said: A sort of acceptable amount of racism? Please don't put words into my mouth. There are different ways we can show support to black people that would get everyone on side. Surely that's a better alternative? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Stevo985 Posted June 10, 2021 VT Supporter Popular Post Share Posted June 10, 2021 (edited) 24 minutes ago, villalad21 said: Seem a bit counter productive. All you are achieving by persisting with this is making things worse not better. We can all be on different sides, worsening the relationship between players and fans or we can try to find a middle ground we can all be content with. I want to try to find a better alternative which will stop the booing and at the same time not remove the message. No you want to give the racists what they want. That's all that would be achieving. It's basically like if a group of people started booing the minute silence for Remembrance day and me saying "Well this is just making things worse. We should change the minute silence to something else" It's **** stupid. The problem is the people booing, not the thing they are booing. Edited June 10, 2021 by Stevo985 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted June 10, 2021 Moderator Share Posted June 10, 2021 19 minutes ago, Panto_Villan said: Honestly, I'd be perfectly cool with the response "Yeah, this could have been handled a bit better but it doesn't justify the booing, does it?" because that's essentially my view too. I believe the players when they say they're protesting for generic anti-racism rather than BLM, but nonetheless I still think their choice of gesture could plausibly be associated with BLM no matter how often they come out and say that. It's a needless own goal in my opinion; if they're not supporting Black Lives Matter then they don't need to be tied to any specific gesture yet they chose the only one with potential to cause confusion. Unfortunately when people started stating with complete certainty that there is literally no way anyone could ever think taking the knee had anything to do with BLM, I probably should have guessed it was going to end with me being called a racist and checked out earlier. What is it you think BLM is? There are sections of the press that work very hard to associate BLM with the Black Lives Matter Global Network, that's not accidental, and it's a very convenient way to devalue the movement, but it's absolutely not what BLM is. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomav84 Posted June 10, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted June 10, 2021 24 minutes ago, villalad21 said: Seem a bit counter productive. All you are achieving by persisting with this is making things worse not better. We can all be on different sides, worsening the relationship between players and fans or we can try to find a middle ground we can all be content with. I want to try to find a better alternative which will stop the booing and at the same time not remove the message. we're not all on different sides. most are on the same side, it's just a few idiots that are not. why would they back down to the minority? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarryOnVilla Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 7 minutes ago, villalad21 said: Please don't put words into my mouth. There are different ways we can show support to black people that would get everyone on side. Surely that's a better alternative? Why should anyone show their support in any other way? Why should any minority support have to change what they do, just because some racists and bigots are unhappy about it? it’s pathetic 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panto_Villan Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 3 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said: What is it you think BLM is? There are sections of the press that work very hard to associate BLM with the Black Lives Matter Global Network, that's not accidental, and it's a very convenient way to devalue the movement, but it's absolutely not what BLM is. When I say BLM or use the capitalised form Black Lives Matter I'm referring to the political organisation Black Lives Matter Global Network. When I say black lives matter I'm referring to the generic anti-racism social movement. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DakotaVilla Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 25 minutes ago, villalad21 said: Please don't put words into my mouth. There are different ways we can show support to black people that would get everyone on side. Surely that's a better alternative? The ONLY way to show support to black people is to be anti racist. Any pandering to racists or trying to find any middle ground “to get everyone” inside is not a better alternative. it just makes people like you slightly more comfortable as you’re then excused from not having to take difficult decisions to call out racism when you see it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Davkaus Posted June 10, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted June 10, 2021 55 minutes ago, villalad21 said: Seem a bit counter productive. All you are achieving by persisting with this is making things worse not better. If we're going to argue that a group of people are making things worse, not better, I'm not sure the people kneeling should be the primary target. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 1 hour ago, villalad21 said: Please don't put words into my mouth. There are different ways we can show support to black people that would get everyone on side. Surely that's a better alternative? Unfortunately for some people, there is nothing that would get them on side. For all their 'pick an alternative gesture' rhetoric, you can be sure that if that happened, they would eventually find someway to complain about that. You see it all the time, not just when talking about racial equality - look what happens when clubs do things like rainbow laces that are simple, not overt gestures that happen once a year; they announce it on social media and there's loads of replies like 'not my club', 'stick to football' etc (and a whole lot worse as well). They like to hide behind 'i'm not racist/sexist/homophobic etc, i just don't want to be 'lectured' about these issues at a football match'; when really they mean they don't give a shit about anyone else and want to carry on their ignorant and offensive behaviour. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post tom_avfc Posted June 10, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted June 10, 2021 2 hours ago, villalad21 said: Seem a bit counter productive. All you are achieving by persisting with this is making things worse not better. We can all be on different sides, worsening the relationship between players and fans or we can try to find a middle ground we can all be content with. I want to try to find a better alternative which will stop the booing and at the same time not remove the message. Can't be just me that is completely happy to be on a different side to anybody who is booing the taking of the knee. I'd rather not attempt to find a middle ground and I find the whole idea of doing this pretty uncomfortable. If the options are to continue being on a different side to people who are booing an anti-racist gesture or to attempt to appease them then I'll go with the first every single time. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomav84 Posted June 10, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted June 10, 2021 16 minutes ago, tom_avfc said: Can't be just me that is completely happy to be on a different side to anybody who is booing the taking of the knee. I'd rather not attempt to find a middle ground and I find the whole idea of doing this pretty uncomfortable. If the options are to continue being on a different side to people who are booing an anti-racist gesture or to attempt to appease them then I'll go with the first every single time. oh definitely and i think anyone trying to find any middle ground by suggesting a new gesture or dropping it entirely are as bad as they are. there's calls from kick it out now to clap if you support the knee, before the booing starts. fingers crossed we just wont hear it going forward. certain grounds you might do i.e millwall, burnley and probably england games too i'd hope that at our place any that want to boo are drowned out though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mic09 Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 Do you think that taking the knee will go on forever? And if not, how and when will it end? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomav84 Posted June 10, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted June 10, 2021 19 minutes ago, Mic09 said: Do you think that taking the knee will go on forever? And if not, how and when will it end? i think it would've ended now had there been no booing. end of the season would have been a logical point to stop it now, i can see it going on probably for most or all of next season. the boos will continue, and the knee will continue as long as the boos do. it's who blinks first. for me the boos have highlighted the need for it so perfectly happy for it to continue 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panto_Villan Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 What about the people who aren't booing, but aren't cheering either? If you don't want to share a tent with people who boo an anti-racism gesture, would you be able to tolerate finding a middle ground that made the waverers cheer instead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted June 10, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted June 10, 2021 29 minutes ago, Mic09 said: Do you think that taking the knee will go on forever? And if not, how and when will it end? If it hadn't ended already then I think it wouldn't be happening next season... if it wasn't for the booing. While the booing continues, the kneeling will continue. Otherwise the racists win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted June 10, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted June 10, 2021 3 minutes ago, Panto_Villan said: What about the people who aren't booing, but aren't cheering either? If you don't want to share a tent with people who boo an anti-racism gesture, would you be able to tolerate finding a middle ground that made the waverers cheer instead? There's no need for a middle ground 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 1 minute ago, Stevo985 said: If it hadn't ended already then I think it wouldn't be happening next season... if it wasn't for the booing. While the booing continues, the kneeling will continue. Otherwise the racists win. I agree with the sentiment that racists can’t be seen to win, but I have a feeling the cowards in charge of football will push to stop the kneeling down if/when the booing gets worse and worse (which I think it will). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted June 10, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted June 10, 2021 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Genie said: I agree with the sentiment that racists can’t be seen to win, but I have a feeling the cowards in charge of football will push to stop the kneeling down if/when the booing gets worse and worse (which I think it will). Then they truly are cowards. And the backlash from the authorities banning an anti-racism gesture would be far worse Edited June 10, 2021 by Stevo985 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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