Dean Smith

[Naaaaarch]

5 hours ago, KentVillan said:

Does anyone know why they had such a quiet summer transfer window by their standards? I don't know loads about Norwich, but it always felt to me like they didn't replace Buendia, who was their star man in 2020/21.

Will there be budget available in Jan for the new coach? If not, I think they'll struggle to push much beyond 5th. Just a strange situation all round. Smith and Norwich have both dropped off, and both damaged their chances of progressing.

I think we tried to be a bit to clever for our own good when it came to replacing Emi. Farke wanted 3 quality players that summer, a CB and replacements for Buendia and Skipp. Webber gave him about 10 players that were minor upgrades on players in our squad. I think he was trying to recreate Emi's numbers through about 6 different players.

We're in a tough position when we get promoted as players that will genuinely improve our team are hard to attract without blowing the wage structure and they obviously don't want the relegation wage drops that we need to secure ourselves. We also lost a key recruitment guy going into our last Premier League season so we were panicking.

Without sales I doubt we have a lot to spend in January,  even less now we've had to pay off Smith and his coaches. A part of the reason we couldn't do as much this summer was because we didn't get the offer we were expecting for Max Aarons. We focussed heavily on midfield this summer which made sense for how Smith wanted to play but he's been unlucky. Hayden has been injured most of the time and Sara and Nunez whilst looking very good at times are clearly still in there settling in phase (signed straight out of Brazil and Chile). Ramsey was pretty decent though so there's that!

It'll be interesting to see what style of coach we go for next that's for sure. Hell, it'll be interesting to see if the interim team ditch the 433.

 

[Tomaszk]

11 hours ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

Some people are bizarrely blinded by what we achieved with Deano.

We are actively trying to tell fans at the other clubs he's Managed why they are " deluded " almost arrogantly. lol

When fans and pundits were doing the same with us re: Gerrard, we never liked it so why the hypocrisy?

You'd assume the ACTUAL fans of the clubs know more about the goings on at their own clubs than us.

Jesus we all love him but some of the comments are madness.

Thomas Frank has done an outstanding job at Brentford regardless of how we want to spin it.

Deano probably reached his ceiling, probably took a job to " prove a point " and it was obviously the wrong decision. ( I thought it was at the time as  well )

From the Norwich angle, they should have kept Farke, in essence, he is/was to them what Deano was to us, and Deano was to them, what SG was to us, looking at their comments and feelings.

Not seen much saying Norwich fans are deluded without fair reasoning. This Norwich team is worse than any of the others that have gone up in the last 5/6 years.

Frank got to spend club record fees because it was time for Brentford. If Smith stayed, he would have instead. And as we know, Brentford don't make many bad transfers. They may have gone up a year earlier if Smith hadn't joined Villa. Who knows!

The Brexiteers who loved Bruce and Gerrard and hated Smith have something to cheer them up anyway.

[Zatman]

2 hours ago, Naaaaarch said:

I think we tried to be a bit to clever for our own good when it came to replacing Emi. Farke wanted 3 quality players that summer, a CB and replacements for Buendia and Skipp. Webber gave him about 10 players that were minor upgrades on players in our squad. I think he was trying to recreate Emi's numbers through about 6 different players.

 

 

Thats what happened here with Grealish and what probably got Smith the sack last season

[The_Steve]

4 hours ago, Zatman said:

Thats what happened here with Grealish and what probably got Smith the sack last season

Not really. Smith’s downfall wasn’t just about the loss of Grealish, it was more a product of his tactical failings and shortcomings. He didn’t start Buendia initially or played him in a 10 role (not as a winger at Norwich), had issues with Bailey and scapegoating Mings for the defensive failings. The constant formation tinkering was just as disruptive. Let’s not re-write the script of his failings post-Grealish because he’s one of us. Smith had hit his ceiling and was rightfully sacked for those reasons. You cannot gain just 40 points from 36 games and expect to stay manager. 

[VillaChris]

DS randomly going to 3-5-2 more just to get Ings and Watkins in same 11 was his downfall.

Wonder who Norwich will look at now. I actually think Wilder will be a decent fit but after getting sacked by Boro his stock probably isn't that high.

Him and DS are very similar managers when you think about it. Both did excellent work cutting their teeth at Walsall and Northampton respectively. Both then got a promotion at "their club" and both on face of it were unlucky to get sacked. Loads scratching their heads on here at why he got sacked with Norwich when they're in play offs and Wilder was only at Boro about 10 months and in that time knocked out Spurs and Man. United in the cup and got them to 7th from mid table but a poor run at start of this season and that was it.

Next job for both is huge now so logical to take six months off and look again in the summer when they'll be decent jobs available. 

[VillaChris]

14 hours ago, KentVillan said:

They aren’t, but in theory he’s a PL manager coming up against some pretty mediocre managers, and he’s struggled to make much of an impact.

I don’t put it down to him being an awful manager, I just don’t think he’s turned out to be a good fit for Norwich. It’s a mix of slightly (but not wildly) inflated expectations from their fans, and his own rabbit hole he’s gone down with Shakespeare.

I think if he gets back to the style of football he played at Walsall, Brentford and Villa in the Championship, he could do a good job somewhere and be well liked by the fanbase.

His real talent is getting the best out of very talented players who just need an arm round the shoulder. I don’t think he’s had much of that to work with at Norwich unfortunately. There’ll be other clubs at this level who will suit him better.

And possibly even somewhere like Southampton will take an interest in him (although I think that would be another mistake).

Bristol City got loads of good young players and experience with guys like Weimann so I reckon that would be a good fit for DS to build given promotion isn't expected but they're underachieving being in bottom six of championship.

Again though there's the risk of going back in quickly without taking a proper break but perhaps they'll scrape survival and job will be available in the summer.

[VillaChris]

8 hours ago, Naaaaarch said:

I think we tried to be a bit to clever for our own good when it came to replacing Emi. Farke wanted 3 quality players that summer, a CB and replacements for Buendia and Skipp. Webber gave him about 10 players that were minor upgrades on players in our squad. I think he was trying to recreate Emi's numbers through about 6 different players.

We're in a tough position when we get promoted as players that will genuinely improve our team are hard to attract without blowing the wage structure and they obviously don't want the relegation wage drops that we need to secure ourselves. We also lost a key recruitment guy going into our last Premier League season so we were panicking.

Without sales I doubt we have a lot to spend in January,  even less now we've had to pay off Smith and his coaches. A part of the reason we couldn't do as much this summer was because we didn't get the offer we were expecting for Max Aarons. We focussed heavily on midfield this summer which made sense for how Smith wanted to play but he's been unlucky. Hayden has been injured most of the time and Sara and Nunez whilst looking very good at times are clearly still in there settling in phase (signed straight out of Brazil and Chile). Ramsey was pretty decent though so there's that!

It'll be interesting to see what style of coach we go for next that's for sure. Hell, it'll be interesting to see if the interim team ditch the 433.

 

Think Idah getting injured was a big blow. He's been on the fringes at Norwich for ages but I remember watching you smash Watford 3-0 this time last year and he was excellent all game and scored IIRC. Must be DS best performance anyway in his year in charge.

[TRO]

20 hours ago, KentVillan said:

Hmm... let's see what happens to Brentford when Toney gets banned for life. I like Frank, but not sure there's *that* much more to that story than Brentford continuing to invest well in players. They were 6th in Championship when Smith left.

Was resilience really Smith's problem anyway? His ability to come back from bad runs of results suggests the opposite.

I'll give you the intensity criticism, though. We always looked too spread out without the ball. Good man manager, bit lacking in tactical nous. Good at building a club culture and getting the best out of needy characters like Grealish. Good at weeding out trouble makers as well. Bad at in-game tactics, never had a Plan B, and you could usually tell in the first 10 mins if you were going to play well or not.

I think he'll do ok in his next role if he just takes a breather and thinks about it more carefully.

Thats what Eddie Howe did.....re-evaluated himself, and recorded all his good training sessions and plans.

You are right what you say, the question always was.....was his good points enough, and while I appreciate them, it wasn't enough.

I will say this to you.....Winning creates an environment, where so many things manifest themselves to be right......So many things get overlooked, dismissed, or ignored, when you win.....Ron Saunders, wasn't everybodies friend and I know first hand, about that.....but we won games, so any sulky faces, fell on deaf ears.

You are right, Dean did find a way to bounce back, like the 10 game winning run with us, but we won 2 in 12 games leading up to that......Consisteny is key.....We was too easy to beat, too often in those days, and Jack was a key component to mask over the deficiencies, in the team.

Dean has a good/significant part to play in our history, but his managerial prowess, is a bit exaggerated in my book.....His personal Character, is whole different ball game.....Top Bloke.

Edited December 28, 2022 by TRO

[TRO]

10 hours ago, Naaaaarch said:

I think we tried to be a bit to clever for our own good when it came to replacing Emi. Farke wanted 3 quality players that summer, a CB and replacements for Buendia and Skipp. Webber gave him about 10 players that were minor upgrades on players in our squad. I think he was trying to recreate Emi's numbers through about 6 different players.

We're in a tough position when we get promoted as players that will genuinely improve our team are hard to attract without blowing the wage structure and they obviously don't want the relegation wage drops that we need to secure ourselves. We also lost a key recruitment guy going into our last Premier League season so we were panicking.

Without sales I doubt we have a lot to spend in January,  even less now we've had to pay off Smith and his coaches. A part of the reason we couldn't do as much this summer was because we didn't get the offer we were expecting for Max Aarons. We focussed heavily on midfield this summer which made sense for how Smith wanted to play but he's been unlucky. Hayden has been injured most of the time and Sara and Nunez whilst looking very good at times are clearly still in there settling in phase (signed straight out of Brazil and Chile). Ramsey was pretty decent though so there's that!

It'll be interesting to see what style of coach we go for next that's for sure. Hell, it'll be interesting to see if the interim team ditch the 433.

 

I think we did, when we tried to replace Jack.

I like Norwich, always have, a good footballing side.....but I think your club needs to think, what it wants to be.

As you aspire to better things the football needs to have additional strength, I'm not always sure, your team has had this.

However, having limited funds, is hard to manage.

[Pinebro]

Very harsh.

They're still in the  top 6

[The_Steve]

53 minutes ago, Pinebro said:

Very harsh.

They're still in the  top 6

12 points off the automatic spots and just 5 points ahead of Stoke in 17th. One defeat and if results go against them, they could drop as low as 14th. Given they had parachute payments and an established squad. To not be higher up the table is the reason. Especially with just 3 wins in 13 Championship games. 

[Naaaaarch]

3 hours ago, VillaChris said:

DS randomly going to 3-5-2 more just to get Ings and Watkins in same 11 was his downfall.

Wonder who Norwich will look at now. I actually think Wilder will be a decent fit but after getting sacked by Boro his stock probably isn't that high.

Him and DS are very similar managers when you think about it. Both did excellent work cutting their teeth at Walsall and Northampton respectively. Both then got a promotion at "their club" and both on face of it were unlucky to get sacked. Loads scratching their heads on here at why he got sacked with Norwich when they're in play offs and Wilder was only at Boro about 10 months and in that time knocked out Spurs and Man. United in the cup and got them to 7th from mid table but a poor run at start of this season and that was it.

Next job for both is huge now so logical to take six months off and look again in the summer when they'll be decent jobs available. 

Coincidentally Dean Smith went 352 in his final game here. Ironically he probably stumbled on a formation that would have worked had he worked on it a lot earlier. We have 2 very good attacking wing backs in Giannoulis and Aarons and it would mean that Sargent could play his natural position alongside Pukki instead of being shunted out wide.  He was extremely married to 433 which never made a lot of sense to me considering most of our wing options (Dowell, Cantwell, Sinani, Ramsey when he was forced out there) aren't really  built for that. 

In terms of next manager I don't think it'll be any of the early 'obvious' early bookies favs.

Parker - His style was not liked by fans of Bournemouth or Fulham and he wanted big budgets. He openly criticised clubs and our SD doesn't take criticism well.
Martin - Not actually achieved anything yet. A glance at Swans forum suggests they wouldn't be bothered if he left. That's a sign it's probably not time.
Dyche - Think he's recently said he wants a Premier League job. My gut feeling is we'll be aiming for a brand of football closer to Farke's anyway.
Robins - Probably more than happy to stay where he is. He plays good football at Coventry but without the Norwich nostalgia he wouldn't be getting linked.
Gerrard - lol, well some of you lot would enjoy that I'm sure.
Wilder - Possibly too similar to Smith with falling stock.

Hassenhuttl and Knutsun are next on that list and whilst I'd absolutely take them I would think they're beyond us.

I think it'll be a name from the left of field. We've moved a lot of out recruitment out to South America so perhaps a coach leaning that way would make sense. Or at least Spanish/Portuguese speaking with an eye on helping these guys settle in. 

[Naaaaarch]

3 hours ago, VillaChris said:

Think Idah getting injured was a big blow. He's been on the fringes at Norwich for ages but I remember watching you smash Watford 3-0 this time last year and he was excellent all game and scored IIRC. Must be DS best performance anyway in his year in charge.

Absolutely. In general we looked more joined up when we played with one of the bigger men up top, be it in that 442 or his natural 433. If he had the chance to do it all over again I wonder if he'd have been braver with the Pukki call as he obviously doesn't fit Smith's game too well.

[briny_ear]

19 hours ago, Tomaszk said:

The Brexiteers who loved Bruce and Gerrard and hated Smith have something to cheer them up anyway.

Odd.

I always assumed it was the Brexiteers who loved Smith.

All that stuff about “one of our own”.

Couldn’t cope with the idea of a manager coming from as far away as Liverpool or Newcastle with northern accents.

[Zatman]

5 hours ago, briny_ear said:

Odd.

I always assumed it was the Brexiteers who loved Smith.

All that stuff about “one of our own”.

Couldn’t cope with the idea of a manager coming from as far away as Liverpool or Newcastle with northern accents.

So true, nobody liked the Steves because of the accent not because they were 2 arrogant and inept clearings in the woods

[Demitri_C]

On 27/12/2022 at 19:31, Villan_of_oz said:

DS brought the good times back to Villa Park, and for that he will always have my respect.

His sacking was a disgrace, not because he didn't deserve it, he had definitely taken us as far as he could. The way it was handled and who he was sacked for will always annoy me.

I never thought the Norwich job would end well for him, and so it has been proven.  

I will always remember him for those 10 matches in a row and the promotion.

All the best Deano!

 

 

 

 

It wasnt a disgrace he was sacked in a right way. He was backed and given time and he needed to go. 

Who they appointed was poor and i agree with that part of your post but that's two different conversations. If we didnt get gerrard we wouldnt have emery now as he wasnt leaving villareal any sooner as newcastle found out

Edited December 29, 2022 by Demitri_C

[The Fun Factory]

Sadly inevitable when he bit back at the fans. They never took to him. Whoever replaces him will do a good job to get them up, they seem like a club on the slide. Perhaps not the best career move for him. I don't believe there is a single former Villa manager in a job at present- is that a record? 

[Mantis]

I do think a lot of Villa fans (understandably) have a bit of a blind spot when it comes to Smith, both regarding his last few months here and his performance at Norwich. He did a great job getting us up and then keeping us there, but I don't think there's much from his overall career to suggest that he's a particularly good manager outside of Villa. As I said before, he's sort of to to us what Lambert was to Norwich in terms of getting success there but not elsewhere.

[Oaks]

On 28/12/2022 at 03:14, The_Steve said:

Not really. Smith’s downfall wasn’t just about the loss of Grealish, it was more a product of his tactical failings and shortcomings. He didn’t start Buendia initially or played him in a 10 role (not as a winger at Norwich), had issues with Bailey and scapegoating Mings for the defensive failings. The constant formation tinkering was just as disruptive. Let’s not re-write the script of his failings post-Grealish because he’s one of us. Smith had hit his ceiling and was rightfully sacked for those reasons. You cannot gain just 40 points from 36 games and expect to stay manager. 

To be perfectly honest its both.

[thunderball]

I thought it was a good move for Smith, Norwich are a generally sensible club and Smith had proved his worth at Brentford and more so at Villa. I felt his style suited the Championship more than the PL and he would have grown as a manager during his time at Villa. Norwich had resources and thought that coupled with Smiths experience and playing style would be a good fit. But we all know what a bear pit the Championship is, it respects no one and bouncing back is not easy and Norwich were a as poor a relegated side as any in recent memory. They didn’t really adequately replace Buendia and Pukki was already fizzling out last season.

Above all else, as we know, Smith has prolonged good and bad runs, and he was on a downer, but I dont doubt he would have got them firing again, but when the supporters want you out then that’s that, a bit like Emery at Arsenal. Also, we know that even very good managers have bad seasons - look at Touchel’s last season at Chelsea, Mourihno at Chelsea II and Spurs, and even Moyes at West Ham. It’s part of a Manager’s lot, he will bounce back and get another pay day, and probably be better for it. I would also love Norwich to appoint Steve Bruce.