lexicon Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 He's definitely better left wing IMO. He's faster than people give him credit for and there aren't many players who are faster with the ball at their feet. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam-AVFC Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 3 minutes ago, Rightdm00 said: 11 w/ Barkley 8 w/o Barkley I put the Brighton game in the no Barkley category since Barkley was gone by the 5 minute mark. .65 G/A with Barkley .5 G/A without Barkley Not sure where this infatuation with playing him central comes from. Eye test, stats, analytically he looks better from the left. Not to mention whenever he starts center he always ends up crowding out the LW anyway. OK, so he has more goal contributions with Barkley on the pitch. All that shows is he provides more goal contributions with better players on the pitch. I'm not sure what the relevance is to positions, unless you're trying to prove the point that he does better playing with better players. E.g. obviously he has done better on the left as Barkley is better than El Ghazi. There is no infatuation, some people just disagree with you. My 'eye test' shows me he often gets less space in the middle because at least one of our wingers will be shite enough to ignore. Sign a quality LW and that completely changes the dynamic. You say stats prove he's better from the left, but all you've shown so far are his goal contributions based on whether or not he plays with Barkley. I'd be interested to see stats like key passes/per game from each positions. What do you mean 'analytically' he looks better from the left? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam-AVFC Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 2 minutes ago, nick76 said: Am I just really stupid? The post certainly didn't answer my question and I have no idea what the relevance is to position played. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lexicon Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 3 minutes ago, Sam-AVFC said: OK, so he has more goal contributions with Barkley on the pitch. All that shows is he provides more goal contributions with better players on the pitch. I'm not sure what the relevance is to positions, unless you're trying to prove the point that he does better playing with better players. E.g. obviously he has done better on the left as Barkley is better than El Ghazi. There is no infatuation, some people just disagree with you. My 'eye test' shows me he often gets less space in the middle because at least one of our wingers will be shite enough to ignore. Sign a quality LW and that completely changes the dynamic. You say stats prove he's better from the left, but all you've shown so far are his goal contributions based on whether or not he plays with Barkley. I'd be interested to see stats like key passes/per game from each positions. What do you mean 'analytically' he looks better from the left? I think the point is that we have to play the best XI we can and with the squad we have, that's the position best for him. He might be better as a CAM with a winger of the equivalent quality to Barkley, but frankly we just don't know, so it's just a theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam-AVFC Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 (edited) 9 minutes ago, lexicon said: I think the point is that we have to play the best XI we can and with the squad we have, that's the position best for him. He might be better as a CAM with a winger of the equivalent quality to Barkley, but frankly we just don't know, so it's just a theory. Definitely agree for this year, but I assumed it was a wider discussion about where we'd like him to end up as we all know we aren't signing a quality winger in the next few hours. I do believe we could get a better wide player than Barkley (consistency and decision making wise) in the summer for similar money, which is why I'd make the change. Obviously if we can sign an amazing number 10 then it makes sense for Grealish to stay wide. I think most people agree that Grealish can play well in either position and it's personal preference. I just think Grealish taking Barkley's place and getting a quality fast winger would give us a better balance Edited February 1, 2021 by Sam-AVFC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rightdm00 Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 1 minute ago, Sam-AVFC said: OK, so he has more goal contributions with Barkley on the pitch. All that shows is he provides more goal contributions with better players on the pitch. I'm not sure what the relevance is to positions, unless you're trying to prove the point that he does better playing with better players. E.g. obviously he has done better on the left as Barkley is better than El Ghazi. There is no infatuation, some people just disagree with you. My 'eye test' shows me he often gets less space in the middle because at least one of our wingers will be shite enough to ignore. Sign a quality LW and that completely changes the dynamic. You say stats prove he's better from the left, but all you've shown so far are his goal contributions based on whether or not he plays with Barkley. I'd be interested to see stats like key passes/per game from each positions. What do you mean 'analytically' he looks better from the left? The original post i responded to claimed Jack had more goal contributions from middle on avg. So I posted the #s because that didn't seem right. I split it the way I did because Jack drifts far more when we either play a 4-3-3 or he is the #10. When Barkley is on the pitch, Jack pretty much stays on the LW. When Barkley was injured he spent the majority of his time in the middle of the pitch or at least not on the left. Also, these numbers exclude the Liverpool game (mostly on the LW) so it's even more lopsided once you throw that in there. As far as analytics go, his xG and goal contributions per 90 are all vastly superior from the LW. A comparison of heat maps show that he spends far more time closer to goal when he is on the left versus the middle when sometimes he will drop as deep as our CBs to receive the ball. The goal versus Southampton is a perfect example of why he is so much more dangerous from the wing. His first touch is a cross 5 yards from the byline. That's where you want your most dangerous players getting their touches in and around the 18 yard box. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lexicon Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 28 minutes ago, Sam-AVFC said: Definitely agree for this year, but I assumed it was a wider discussion about where we'd like him to end up as we all know we aren't signing a quality winger in the next few hours. I do believe we could get a better wide player than Barkley (consistency and decision making wise) in the summer for similar money, which is why I'd make the change. Obviously if we can sign an amazing number 10 then it makes sense for Grealish to stay wide. I think most people agree that Grealish can play well in either position and it's personal preference. I just think Grealish taking Barkley's place and getting a quality fast winger would give us a better balance I used to think that he might be better in the centre, but now I think LW suits him down to the ground. Puts him higher up in attacking areas and not many wingers are more of a threat than him on the ball - and as I said, he's a lot faster than people give him credit for. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick76 Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 1 hour ago, Sam-AVFC said: Am I just really stupid? The post certainly didn't answer my question and I have no idea what the relevance is to position played. Sorry not to you but the general conversation over the last day! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyblade Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 I'm also of the opinion that we'd probably be even better if we had 2 quality wide forwards either side of Jack in the CAM position. I'm talking about wingers that teams sometimes have to double up on, like Ashley Young in his pomp. We were that team in 17/18, albeit at a lower level, and Jack was the absolute king of the assist to the assist that year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Villa 59 Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 This 'more or less' subs argument cannot be proven either way and as such is a pretty pointless debate as is what's Jack's best position? For now I'm just enjoying the great season we've had so far. In Deano I trust! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post dont_do_it_doug. Posted February 1, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted February 1, 2021 6 hours ago, MotoMkali said: If you exclude the Liverpool game because it is an anomaly (you should - well outside 3 standard deviations from Jack's mean). Jack Averages slightly more goal Contributions as a CAM than as a winger. On top of our other winger playing better I prefer jack in the centre. Yeah he goes down the left more frequently but the ball goes to traore more because Jack can offer more support down that side of the pitch. If you exclude this game which doesn't suit my agenda... I'm still wrong. 3 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick76 Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 3 minutes ago, Villa 59 said: as is what's Jack's best position Not sure I agree because that determines what we buy next whether a left sided forward or a CAM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Villa 59 Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 1 minute ago, nick76 said: Not sure I agree because that determines what we buy next whether a left sided forward or a CAM. Yea, in that respect I agree with you. But there are far too many variables in the number of subs we should have used or what Jack's best position is. Moreover, when we get the left side forward that you mention it's time to re-evaluate. For now I think Deano has got it spot on IMO For what's it's worth I think we'll be looking for a left sided forward in the summer and it proves to be a good signing I would like Jack in the centre but for me it's the 'here and now' that matters most! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwivillan Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 In PL Grealish has 10 goals and 13 assists at LW and 0 goals and 3 assists at #10 so not sure where this more goal contributions at latter comes from. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick76 Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 5 minutes ago, Villa 59 said: Yea, in that respect I agree with you. But there are far too many variables in the number of subs we should have used or what Jack's best position is. Moreover, when we get the left side forward that you mention it's time to re-evaluate. For now I think Deano has got it spot on IMO For what's it's worth I think we'll be looking for a left sided forward in the summer and it proves to be a good signing I would like Jack in the centre but for me it's the 'here and now' that matters most! I’m the opposite, Jacks best position is wide left and somebody on here just provided stats to back that up so I wouldn’t be looking for wide left player, I would be looking for that CAM role. Leave Jack free in him most effective position and bring in somebody to really take charge of that CAM role. As you say it doesn’t matter for now but I hope the scouting team are focusing on CAM recruitment not wide left now, ready to buy in the summer. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rightdm00 Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 4 minutes ago, Kiwivillan said: In PL Grealish has 10 goals and 13 assists at LW and 0 goals and 3 assists at #10 so not sure where this more goal contributions at latter comes from. People still dreaming on our setup while in the championship. Jack has been world class on the left for at least a year in the Prem. Why tinker with what's already damn near perfect. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Villa 59 Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 4 minutes ago, nick76 said: I’m the opposite, Jacks best position is wide left and somebody on here just provided stats to back that up so I wouldn’t be looking for wide left player, I would be looking for that CAM role. Leave Jack free in him most effective position and bring in somebody to really take charge of that CAM role. As you say it doesn’t matter for now but I hope the scouting team are focusing on CAM recruitment not wide left now, ready to buy in the summer. Sorry mate, I must have misread what you said. Suffice to say that the think Jack is great in both positions. I suppose it depends on the other players in the squad are and whom we're playing. It's good to have several players who can adapt to different positions. I guess that's what Dean is looking for longterm. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
useless Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 I thought Smith would be an interesting choice when at Walsall, did good job to get them out of relegation trouble, had them playing good football, and a Villa fan. I hope that he can win us a major trophy in the coming seasons. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Villa 59 Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 3 minutes ago, useless said: I thought Smith would be an interesting choice when at Walsall, did good job to get them out of relegation trouble, had them playing good football, and a Villa fan. I hope that he can win us a major trophy in the coming seasons. Seems that you're a good judge if you could see his potential that far back And yes, I'm convinced we will things with him. Luckily, we have patient owners with ambitions and very deep pockets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
useless Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 (edited) I'm not great judge, just had a really good feeling that Smith would go far in the game and he was one to watch out for. Edited February 1, 2021 by useless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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