Israel, Palestine and Iran

[omariqy]

It baffles me how Israelis or some Jewish people abroad have been brainwashed to believe that they are on the right side of history here? Many children have been injured or killed today for protesting. Just for speaking out. Imagine the UK army killing 40 odd people at the Welsh border for protesting?

[choffer]

21 minutes ago, omariqy said:

It baffles me how Israelis or some Jewish people abroad have been brainwashed to believe that they are on the right side of history here? Many children have been injured or killed today for protesting. Just for speaking out. Imagine the UK army killing 40 odd people at the Welsh border for protesting?

The whole thing is deeply complex and there are so many facets to each argument that it's so difficult to really get your head around it all. From my limited experience of spending time over there though, it is staggering how the Israeli's treat the Palestinians. You're right though,  brainwashing is the only word for it and it's so all-pervasive, it's not difficult to see how it's stuck. Spending any time in the country, you will be assaulted at every turn with "facts" about how evil they are and how innocent the Israeli's are in the whole thing.

I know it's not cool to stereotype a people but the Palestinians I've met over there were all warm, friendly and helpful people whereas the Israeli's were, I'll just say, less so. 

[Amsterdam_Neil_D]

27 minutes ago, omariqy said:

It baffles me how Israelis or some Jewish people abroad have been brainwashed to believe that they are on the right side of history here?

I think the opposite,  they know they are the wrong side of history but I think the prize of the land is worth more than what they lose overall as a set of people.  

 

[El Zen]

10 hours ago, Glarmorgan said:

1. The Israeli Arabs are equal and have equal rights as I have. Well, almost. The difference is that since Israel is the home of the Jewish people - Jews get automatic citizenship, while non-Jews are not. That's the main difference. Other than that - the Jews and the Arabs abide to the same set of laws. It's not they are not treated like crap. They are equal citizens, not less than I am. By the way, a couple of years back, as a part of a possible arrangement, someone (I think it was Avigdor Liberman) brought up the idea of an exchange - Israel will swap the settlements in the west bank with the Arab cities in Wadi Ara (Um El Fahm, is one of them). No one will move - no deportation or bulldozing houses. The Arabs fiercely objected to that. The Israeli Arabs. 

Israel is the home of the Jewish people. I would be more than happy if everyone in the world was to live happily ever after, with open borders and friendship all over the place. But things do not work this way, especially not here. I Jewish, but I am not religious. I am secular - but not one in human history, someone forgave a Jew just because he was secular. Jews were and are targeted regardless of their level of belief and history taught everyone that in case of need - no one comes to the aid of the Jews. No one. So yes, we have to have a state where we can defend and hold our own. It's not nice, but there is no other options.

2. Look, this is not a computer game. There is a reality here and you have to take it under consideration. First of all - the Palestinians are the ONLY refugee group whose refugee rights pass to the kids of the refugee or even his grandchildren. This is a very unique state of refuge and the goal for this was to preserve their demands to return here. I won't get into that "forcibly removed". I do advise that you'll see the patterns of behavior the local Arab population had throughout the first half of the 20th century. Many of them were used to leave for a couple of weeks or month, till the hostilities were concluded and then came back. This time - many of them had nowhere to come back, as a new state was reformed. This is only one things. As I said in another discussion, no one forced them to attack Israel on 1948, but upon attacking - they has to suffer the consequences of losing.

I acknowledge their grievances and I fully understand their desires. I really do. At the same time I say these desires cannot be fulfilled, so they have to make a decision - whether they are trying to force this agreement on Israel (which doesn't work too good for them), or forfeiting some of their "righteous" claims for the bigger picture - hence, establishing the Palestinians state. Currently they prefer not to have a state rather than forming it on 97% of the land. If that it reasonable or not - everyone of us can come to his own conclusions. I am not a young boy. I will be 43 years old in a couple of weeks. I am not a hot headed right wing fascist nor a kid who doesn't know what life is really about. As long as extreme demands are made - we will never come to and agreement. When the Hammas, in this very moment, calls for a march "to return to Jaffa and Haifa" - an agreement cannot be made.

‘Almost’ equal rights isn’t good enough, though, is it? I appriciate that you feel Israel must be a Jewish majority state, maybe that’s true even, but you can’t have that and still claim Palestinians aren’t second rate citizens. Mind you, I’m giving you the benefit of accepting your version of reality where everyday life for Palestinians living in Israel is just dandy. Even if that is true, and being perfectly honest that’s a big if, your logic doesn’t hold up. As long as Israel is an explicitly Jewish state, built for the purpose of Jewish predominance, a Palestinian can never be your equal. Not really. Just have the decency to at least admit that. 

I think, if objectivity in ethics exists at all, it is objectively unjust to be forcibly removed from your home. That is what happened to hundreds of thousands of Palestinians in 1948, and before. If objectivity exists, it is objectively reasonable that Palestinians feel they have a right to return to their family homes. It would be entirely reasonable for Palestinians not to accept 1948 as a fair starting point for finding a solution. Yet, to my knowledge, no actual, genuine peace proposal has ever come even close to giving them even that. 

I literally said I realise that a solution, given facts on the ground, must come short of what the Palestinian people rightfully want. I am all too aware of the reality, and I have spent far too much time being angry about it. No need to patronize about it, I know Israel is far too powerful a force for the Palestian people to ever experience justice. It is arrogant in the extreme, however, to effectively call the Palestianians ungrateful, uncooperative and unwilling to find a solution, when Israeli expansionist policies keep moving the goalposts and Israeli brutality keeps murdering children. Forgive me, but your supposed support for a peaceful solution and your claim to acknowledge the grievances of the Palestinian people are not all supported by anything else you are saying. 

Edited May 14, 2018 by Michelsen

[OutByEaster?]

The image of a smiling Netanyahu celebrating while children bled to death is a fitting metaphor for the day. "What a glorious day for Israel" he said while 55 died and 2,700 were injured. These are war crimes on an horrific level and the idea that we should be invited to celebrate in them sickens me. I'm angry and I'm saddened.

 

 

 

[PompeyVillan]

Its fair to say that it's hard to feel particularly sympathetic to Israel on a day where they have yet again killed many Palestinians. 

Don't get me wrong, I think Palestinians would have killed Israelis if they could. 

It's a sad conflict. 

 

[Glarmorgan]

10 hours ago, Michelsen said:

‘Almost’ equal rights isn’t good enough, though, is it? I appriciate that you feel Israel must be a Jewish majority state, maybe that’s true even, but you can’t have that and still claim Palestinians aren’t second rate citizens. Mind you, I’m giving you the benefit of accepting your version of reality where everyday life for Palestinians living in Israel is just dandy. Even if that is true, and being perfectly honest that’s a big if, your logic doesn’t hold up. As long as Israel is an explicitly Jewish state, built for the purpose of Jewish predominance, a Palestinian can never be your equal. Not really. Just have the decency to at least admit that. 

I think, if objectivity in ethics exists at all, it is objectively unjust to be forcibly removed from your home. That is what happened to hundreds of thousands of Palestinians in 1948, and before. If objectivity exists, it is objectively reasonable that Palestinians feel they have a right to return to their family homes. It would be entirely reasonable for Palestinians not to accept 1948 as a fair starting point for finding a solution. Yet, to my knowledge, no actual, genuine peace proposal has ever come even close to giving them even that. 

I literally said I realise that a solution, given facts on the ground, must come short of what the Palestinian people rightfully want. I am all too aware of the reality, and I have spent far too much time being angry about it. No need to patronize about it, I know Israel is far too powerful a force for the Palestian people to ever experience justice. It is arrogant in the extreme, however, to effectively call the Palestianians ungrateful, uncooperative and unwilling to find a solution, when Israeli expansionist policies keep moving the goalposts and Israeli brutality keeps murdering children. Forgive me, but your supposed support for a peaceful solution and your claim to acknowledge the grievances of the Palestinian people are not all supported by anything else you are saying. 

Thanks for your reply.

 

First of all - I am not trying to patronize and if I gave you that feeling - I apologize. 

Second - you are making a mistake of looking at "Palestinians" as a whole. There are three sub-groups or Arabs here:

1. Israeli - Arabs: Arabs who live within the 1967 borders. These are equals to me. Full citizens with the right to vote or be elected, freedom of speech, freedom of movement and so on. As I said - there is a supreme court judge who is Arab, there were Arab ministers, many Arab parliament members, Arab policemen and I can give you many more examples of high level Arab executives. They live in mixed cities, they have the same ID card and passport as I have and so on and so forth. 

2. West Bank Arabs - These are Palestinians who are not Israeli subjects. Their situations will be a part of the overall solution. Currently they live under Palestinians government (as the West Bank is run by Mahmud Abbas). If the plan of some of the people here is to come true - an annexation of the West Bank (which I, personally, fiercely object), they will become full citizens. At this point, since there is a  solid relationship between Fattah and Israel  - a lot of them have work permits within Israel and they enter Israel on daily basis to work.

3. Gaza Arabs - These Palestinians who live in Gaza strip under the government of Hammas. Since Hammas is a hostile force to Israel, the only thing they can not do is to enter Israel. If Hammas was to give up his dream of eliminating Israel - they would get the same rights as their West Bank counterparts. They can leave Gaza via Egypt, into Sinai peninsula. This is not something Israel can prevent as we have no one there. If Egypt prohibits entering its territory, you should address them with this and not Israel. Just to remind that Egypt knows that Hammas actively assisted Islamic extremist in Sinai, committing terrorist acts against Egyptian police forces stationed there. Not a good way to make friends.

There is a constant tension between Fattah and Hammas. Since Fattah (hence, Abbas) wants to regain its control over Gaza strip - they stopped money transfers to Gaza. They are not "one". Far from it.

As I stated in my previous posts - I fully understand their desire to come back. Still - they have to understand this will not happen. You can agree to that or not - but Israel will not accept hundreds of thousands of Palestinians. They will be able to find their new home in the newly formed Palestinians state. Whether they wish to accept that and move forward, or to keep claiming they are never to forfeit the right of return, and to keep the status quo - it's their call. 

I copy from Ehud Olmert's proposal fo 2008, which was rejected by the Palestinians (The source is "The Guardian"):

* Israel would take in 1000 refugees per year for a period of 5 years on "humanitarian" grounds. In addition, programs of "family reunification" would continue.
*. Israel would contribute to the compensation of the refugees through the mechanism and based on suffering. 

I think that's a reasonable move, as it acknowledges the suffering and allowing some of the original 1948 refugees to return. They refused.

[Glarmorgan]

9 hours ago, PompeyVillan said:

Its fair to say that it's hard to feel particularly sympathetic to Israel on a day where they have yet again killed many Palestinians. 

Don't get me wrong, I think Palestinians would have killed Israelis if they could. 

It's a sad conflict. 

 

You are right. the IDF will need to answer some questions after this will end. I guess some of you will also ask Hammas why the hell did they encourage young children to take part in this.

We need to look at it from two perspective:

1. Tactical perspective - 40,000 citizens of a hostile regime march towards the Israeli border, with every intention to break in. What do you do? Do you let them in? There are Israeli towns a couple of Kilometers from there. How far do you go for protecting these towns from the onslaught? How many Israeli casualties are you willing to take, as a part as using a less non lethal weapons?  I heard someone on the radio saying it's unreasonable that the "score" is 55:0. The interviewer asked him whether he was willing to accept the same situation, with his son making the "1" to turn the score to 55:1. He had no idea what to answer to this. These are questions each of the people here should think about. It does not justify a thing. It's a cold description of the situation. I don't know how many of the people here ever held a weapon or needed to make decisions in such situations. It's not a computer game.

2. Strategic Perspective  - What's the goal of Hammas? Their leaders claim this march is to show their intention to return to 1948, to Jaffa and Acre. What is Hammas's hoping for? If there were no casualties yesterday - will anyone in the world care? Would any of the people here talk about these "demonstrations"? Hammas wants casualties as it helps its cause to put pressure on Israel (and Egypt). Israel should be smarter and do all in its power to help the residents of Gaza. There are all sorts of plans but Bibi... well, I can't really tell what he really wants as he says nothing about this issue. I don't think he has any long term goals. He's just "living the day out" . Strategically it seems both sides are doing what they can in order to keep things as they are. Status Quo. Nothing else.

One thing I can say is almost no one here feels good about what went on yesterday. I hope both sides would be smarter coming today.

[Amsterdam_Neil_D]

13 minutes ago, Glarmorgan said:

One thing I can say is almost no one here feels good about what went on yesterday. I hope both sides would be smarter coming today.

I hope this as well and they would struggle to do worse than yesterday.

[sne]

So 58 Palestinians murdered (the number will grow)

2700 injured and out of them 1360 has gun wounds.

A UN resolution expressing anger and sorrow over the massacre and demanding an independent investigation was blocked by the US.(as always).

The hypocrisy in condemning Russia for their acting in Syria while at the same time arming and supporting Israel is just, wow.

[snowychap]

2 hours ago, Glarmorgan said:

One thing I can say is almost no one here feels good about what went on yesterday.

There are two problems here. One is an implicit suggestion that some people did feel good and the other is a failure to say that anyone feels bad about what went on yesterday.

There's just a lot of justifying it away.

[omariqy]

Glamorgan genuine question do you and other Israeli supporters get a weekly or daily email on how to spin murder? I hear the same arguments all the time. How it is the fault of Hammas and how the deaths are regrettable. The lives of non Jews in Israel? Here are some examples. 

 

Wiping out of another race you say? 

 

 

 

 

[omariqy]

Oh and one more 

 

[Keyblade]

3 hours ago, Glarmorgan said:

You are right. the IDF will need to answer some questions after this will end. I guess some of you will also ask Hammas why the hell did they encourage young children to take part in this.

What the hell? They need to answer some questions? Yes that seems a fitting recourse for actual war crimes. Jesus wept.

Also I didn't realize that Hamas were the ones behind the sniper rifles. The lengths you go to to defend your country is disgusting. Nationalism really is a disease. When you get to the point where you downplay and explain away cold-blooded murder in the dozens, maybe it's time to step back and try to treat this. This is not normal.

I bet you give Steve Bruce a bigger rollicking on here for losing a game of football ffs.

[Chindie]

Israel gonna Israel.

Vile regime.

[Jareth]

Biggest criminals yesterday were those sat comfortable and smiling at the opening of the embassy. They knew this would happen and they did not care, because they don't see the people who have died as humans that they can relate to in any sense whatsoever.

[omariqy]

A good watch. 

[omariqy]

 

[maqroll]

Nikki Haley praising the Israelis for their "restraint". The USA is part of the disease. Rogue, racist states love each other, don't they?

[villakram]

Should really be in documentaries, but given the recent discussion in here. A decent doc on the Israeli war crimes in 2014. https://killinggaza.com