Marka Ragnos Posted January 12 VT Supporter Share Posted January 12 (edited) 19 hours ago, Awol said: I won’t bother dragging up the Yemen thread from ages ago, as what’s going to happen tonight is obviously linked to the broader Israel - Iran death match playing out across the region… However, bombing Ansarallah in Yemen really isn’t going to work in the way the people deciding to do it, think it will. I think this is a bit reductive. Obviously, the missile strikes are short-term solution to a short-term problem, that is, attacks on maritime shipping and their civilian sailors in the Red Sea. I can't imagine anyone is silly enough to think the missiles will lead to some kind of magical detente. From what I've read, so far, the bombings have had the desired short-term impact. Long-term, of course, bombings aren't going to produce a diplomatic solution to this very old Houthi problem. Will the bombings bring the Houthis to their knees? No. Will they stop attacks on shipping? They may well do, for a while. The Houthis need to stop trying to kill civilians and destroy lawful shipping. Edited January 12 by Marka Ragnos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 13 minutes ago, Marka Ragnos said: Will they stop attacks on shipping? They may well do, for a while All of about 5 hours it seems !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marka Ragnos Posted January 12 VT Supporter Share Posted January 12 4 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: All of about 5 hours it seems !! And thus they will offer more cruise missile targets. There will never come a time in our lives when it's OK to kill or try to kill civilian sailors in lawful trade and not expect to get smashed. It never works. It generally never has. Ask Yusuf Karamanli. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 Despite its TV coverage I haven't seen many headlines about Israel's defence of committing genocide at the ICJ today. Then I read this at https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/12/israel-accuses-south-africa-of-profound-distortion-at-icj-genocide-hearing Quote Lawyers for Israel said civilians had been killed by Hamas booby-trapping homes, mining alleyways and misfiring rockets, and that the militant group’s use of schools and hospitals for military purposes had caused their structures to collapse. Yeah ok, so THAT's why it hasn't been covered. God, even when given privileged coverage they still sound so ridiculous that loyal media folks have to demote the story. They are going to lose this one. Not that anyone will actually be allowed to see that happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 Is there any way to sign up Gazan grandmothers and children as merchant navy recruits? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted January 12 Moderator Share Posted January 12 13 minutes ago, Jareth said: Despite its TV coverage I haven't seen many headlines about Israel's defence of committing genocide at the ICJ today. Then I read this at https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/12/israel-accuses-south-africa-of-profound-distortion-at-icj-genocide-hearing Yeah ok, so THAT's why it hasn't been covered. God, even when given privileged coverage they still sound so ridiculous that loyal media folks have to demote the story. They are going to lose this one. Not that anyone will actually be allowed to see that happen. Do you think those three things you've mentioned aren’t true? Hamas are no saints here, I imagine all three of those things are true, in fact we pretty much know one misfired / faulty missile fell just outside a hospital for starters, the others seem pretty likely scenarios too and well within their playbook. Don’t take this as me defending Israel, I'm not but Israel mentioning those in their defence seems pretty logical because they will chuck anything that is or seems to be true back in the opposite direction and those things to me are exactly that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 2 minutes ago, bickster said: Do you think those three things you've mentioned aren’t true? Hamas are no saints here, I imagine all three of those things are true, in fact we pretty much know one misfired / faulty missile fell just outside a hospital for starters, the others seem pretty likely scenarios too and well within their playbook. Don’t take this as me defending Israel, I'm not but Israel mentioning those in their defence seems pretty logical because they will chuck anything that is or seems to be true back in the opposite direction and those things to me are exactly that I don't disagree. There is some truth there I am certain. But is it a defence to the accusations from yesterday? Even the members of VT have learnt that nearly half of Israel's bombs were unguided. I am still trying to understand Israel's argument, other than it is perpetual self defence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted January 12 VT Supporter Share Posted January 12 Hamas could be the worst terrorist organisation to have ever existed, run entirely by serial killers and solely eating the flesh of babies, and it wouldn't justify or form a defence of what Israel has been doing in Gaza. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 9 minutes ago, Chindie said: Hamas could be the worst terrorist organisation to have ever existed, run entirely by serial killers and their legal wing run by South Africa, according to Israel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 Have been mulling the SA paradox about Russia and Israel. They've been close to Russia though abstaining at the UN. They've also had a relationship with Israel since Mandela. Agreed about BRICS but that does not erase the commonalities of the countries, which is also why you have Irish barristers representing South Africa. Not sure you can write SA off by only considering their geopolitical place. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rustibrooks Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 10 hours ago, Jareth said: Have been mulling the SA paradox about Russia and Israel. They've been close to Russia though abstaining at the UN. They've also had a relationship with Israel since Mandela. Agreed about BRICS but that does not erase the commonalities of the countries, which is also why you have Irish barristers representing South Africa. Not sure you can write SA off by only considering their geopolitical place. Pretty much agree, IMO it’s just a bit of whataboutism and most people would be calling it that if situations were flipped around. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Dogg Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 South Africa can be hypocrites and still be right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted January 13 Moderator Share Posted January 13 17 minutes ago, Mr_Dogg said: South Africa can be hypocrites and still be right. I’m not sure where anyone has said they were wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Dogg Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 17 minutes ago, bickster said: I’m not sure where anyone has said they were wrong. Their motivation is being questioned. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted January 13 Moderator Share Posted January 13 23 minutes ago, Mr_Dogg said: Their motivation is being questioned. Yes quite rightly, their motivation is in question Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 2 hours ago, bickster said: I’m not sure where anyone has said they were wrong. That’s disingenuous - they have been labelled as a Russian ally which completely ignores their torrid history as a country. They will be remembered for their stance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Panto_Villan Posted January 13 Popular Post Share Posted January 13 2 minutes ago, Jareth said: That’s disingenuous - they have been labelled as a Russian ally which completely ignores their torrid history as a country. They will be remembered for their stance. That’s bollocks, I’m afraid. Israel had a torrid history for most of their existence (y’know, with their neighbours repeatedly trying to exterminate them) but the present matters more than the past. The same South Africa that is bringing this case against Israel last week had a state visit from their buddy Hemedti, leader of the RSF who have been enthusiastically committing genocide in Sudan. They’re also one of the only governments that recognise Hamas specifically (i.e. not just embracing the wider Palestinian cause). And yeah, they support Putin committing genocide in Ukraine too. The “paradox” you referred to earlier is simply that SA will happily cheer genocide if it’s being committed by anti-Western forces, but will be appalled by it if a Western ally is involved. Same as Russia or China. Even if you support them in this specific instance, they’re absolutely not on the right side of history in general. Their days of moral superiority are long gone. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted January 13 Moderator Share Posted January 13 45 minutes ago, Jareth said: That’s disingenuous - they have been labelled as a Russian ally which completely ignores their torrid history as a country. They will be remembered for their stance. They literally are a Russian Ally. Please don’t come to the BRICS meeting in SA Vlad because we'll have to arrest you and we don’t want to because you are our friend Their voting at the UN indicates the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 1 hour ago, Panto_Villan said: Even if you support them in this specific instance, they’re absolutely not on the right side of history in general. Their days of moral superiority are long gone. South Africa are moralising the rest of the world? Have a long bloody word with yourself, if you are British. Did Mandela envisage the BRICS alliance when he spoke of the Palestinians? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 48 minutes ago, bickster said: They literally are a Russian Ally. Please don’t come to the BRICS meeting in SA Vlad because we'll have to arrest you and we don’t want to because you are our friend Their voting at the UN indicates the same. And we are an ally of a genocidal state - how can we judge others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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