Israel, Palestine and Iran

[Panto_Villan]

23 minutes ago, Jareth said:

South Africa are moralising the rest of the world? Have a long bloody word with yourself, if you are British. Did Mandela envisage the BRICS alliance when he spoke of the Palestinians? 

Is your argument seriously that we should admire the stance of the current SA government, which is “we’re pro-genocide everywhere in the world unless Israel do it” because Mandela once led their country?

Edited January 13 by Panto_Villan

[Jareth]

29 minutes ago, Panto_Villan said:

Is your argument seriously that we should admire the stance of the current SA government, which is “we’re pro-genocide everywhere in the world unless Israel do it” because Mandela once led their country?

What on earth do you mean? SA like the Irish have a history of this special sort of crap - are you saying they are illegitimate? 

[Panto_Villan]

2 minutes ago, Jareth said:

What on earth do you mean? SA like the Irish have a history of this special sort of crap - are you saying they are illegitimate? 

Yeah. Sure, if you were talking about Mandela-era South Africa then they would be perfectly placed to mediate the conflict or put forward a case on human rights. They were respected worldwide.

Mandela has been dead for a decade and out of power for far longer, and his successors have repeatedly shown they’re actually very happy to support genocide. I gave multiple examples in my previous post. They’ve squandered their legacy.

Does it mean they’re wrong to bring this case to court? Not necessarily. But you seem to be holding them up as an example of a “good” country, which they’re absolutely not.

[magnkarl]

31 minutes ago, Jareth said:

What on earth do you mean? SA like the Irish have a history of this special sort of crap - are you saying they are illegitimate? 

He’s saying their support for Russia, Iran and other genocidal groups like the RSF makes them a special kind of unfit for trying to run a legal case against a nation for the same thing.

SA are speaking with two tongues. One when it comes to Israel where Israel is doing something bad, and then one when they’re okaying the same or worse from their own allies. In numbers Putin outdoes Benny both in state victims and current victims in his war in Ukraine, yet SA sees nothing wrong there. They’re massive hypocrites. Mandela has nothing to do with it, just like Rabin and Arafat has nothing to do with it anymore.

SA are on par with Russia on the world stage, a bit like Russia blaming other nations for bombing in the UN when they’ve essentially outdone anyone on the world stage in the last 15 years. 

Edited January 13 by magnkarl

[bickster]

2 hours ago, Jareth said:

And we are an ally of a genocidal state - how can we judge others? 

We are people, we aren’t governments, not sure how you can confuse that difference

[sne]

SA are still right about Israel thou. Absolutely murderous fanatical regime that should be held accountable, isolated and condemned. 

[bickster]

2 minutes ago, sne said:

SA are still right about Israel thou. Absolutely murderous fanatical regime that should be held accountable, isolated and condemned. 

Like I said, no one has said any different

[sne]

5 minutes ago, bickster said:

Like I said, no one has said any different

Oh there are loads who say they are in the right But yeah the Hasbara ones on here seem to have gone away once the ethnic cleansing went into overdrive.

Edited January 13 by sne

[Rustibrooks]

I remember at the time when there was one of the early UN Security Council votes in favour of a ceasefire, Ukraine voted to abstain and their motive was questioned. This however was quickly excused due to their geopolitical position with US and UK. I don’t get why this is not the same case for SA with their position with Russia/China? 
 

SA are not perfect (none of these countries are), however they have every right to bring a case to the ICJ. There are other genocides and atrocities around the world, are the world now going to expect SA to do the same with all of them? I hope not but what I hope that’s come from this is that it inspires others to follow suit with the other genocides. If countries always have to look at themselves before presenting a case like this then we are likely to get no where with peace around the world then.
 

[bickster]

16 minutes ago, Rustibrooks said:

remember at the time when there was one of the early UN Security Council votes in favour of a ceasefire, Ukraine voted to abstain and their motive was questioned. This however was quickly excused due to their geopolitical position with US and UK. I don’t get why this is not the same case for SA with their position with Russia/China? 

When did South Africa get invaded by Russia? Comparing SA with Ukraine is a false equivalence.

But this was the Ukrainian Foreign Ministry of the attack on Al Ahli Hospital

Quote

Amid reports on a large number of casualties at the Al Ahli Hospital in the Gaza Strip, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Ukraine emphasizes the inadmissibility under any circumstances of attacks conducted by any of the parties on medical facilities or other civilian objects of critical infrastructure. We call for a comprehensive investigation of this tragedy and bringing perpetrators to justice…

…We reaffirm that the Middle East peace process should remain at the very core of any efforts aimed at restoring regional stability and security, as well as implementation of the principle of «two states solution» with Israel and Palestine coexisting in peace.

 

[Rustibrooks]

2 minutes ago, bickster said:

When did South Africa get invaded by Russia? Comparing SA with Ukraine is a false equivalence.

But this was the Ukrainian Foreign Ministry of the attack on Al Ahli Hospital

 

I didn’t say SA got invaded by Russia that has nothing to do with what I’m saying. Look at what I said again
 

At the time when they had the UN votes, Ukraine abstained and it was questioned and then excused. But SA’s motive is being excused and is now being labelled as hypocrites and being on the same level as Russia. 
 

SA also said this about Hamas at the ICJ but this seems to have missed people. (Apologies for the X link I can’t find the website for the court docs)

 

 

[bickster]

54 minutes ago, Rustibrooks said:

Ukraine voted to abstain and their motive was questioned. This however was quickly excused due to their geopolitical position with US and UK. I don’t get why this is not the same case for SA with their position with Russia/China?

I did read it, you compared the two countries and said you don’t see why their position isn’t the same and why they are being treated differently.

The answer is obvious and has already been answered before you even made your post

But just to repeat it, SA only last week welcomed Hemedti to SA, leader of the RSF and perpetrator of both genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes, in some instances multiple times. He's had help from the likes of the Wagner group on his way, he's on the side of the Houthi in Yemen, he's been at the head of a number of well known massacres. He’s a despicable human being with a dreadful record of slaughter

This and a lot of the other shit going on in the world right now all go back to Putin, via Iran and South Africa are also part of that equation. South Africa isn’t some innocent country in this, it's absolutely a Russian ally. You have to view their actions through that lens.

[Rustibrooks]

5 minutes ago, bickster said:

I did read it, you compared the two countries and said you don’t see why their position isn’t the same and why they are being treated differently.

The answer is obvious and has already been answered before you even made your post

But just to repeat it, SA only last week welcomed Hemedti to SA, leader of the RSF and perpetrator of both genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes, in some instances multiple times. He's had help from the likes of the Wagner group on his way, he's on the side of the Houthi in Yemen, he's been at the head of a number of well known massacres. He’s a despicable human being with a dreadful record of slaughter

This and a lot of the other shit going on in the world right now all go back to Putin, via Iran and South Africa are also part of that equation. South Africa isn’t some innocent country in this, it's absolutely a Russian ally. You have to view their actions through that lens.

I compared their security voting intentions/the ICJ case. IMO I think they can be compared. What I will say though and I said it to specifically you at the time of the UN votes, I don’t think geopolitics should matter for what’s right and wrong. I obviously understand why countries hands are tied with certain things.
 

I’m aware SA hosted the RSF and they are a horrible lot(that’s why I said South Africa aren’t perfect). Also recently SA have sent a security force to DR Congo to help with the cobalt mining genocide over there by M23. I don’t want to make this into the Africa politics thread but I wanted to bring that up to say that they aren’t ignoring everything that’s going on in the world. Could they do better? Obviously but that can be said for everyone. A lot of these issues are indeed Russian/Iran led as well as US/UK led.

[bickster]

18 minutes ago, Rustibrooks said:

I compared their security voting intentions/the ICJ case. IMO I think they can be compared. What I will say though and I said it to specifically you at the time of the UN votes, I don’t think geopolitics should matter for what’s right and wrong. I obviously understand why countries hands are tied with certain things.
 

I’m aware SA hosted the RSF and they are a horrible lot(that’s why I said South Africa aren’t perfect). Also recently SA have sent a security force to DR Congo to help with the cobalt mining genocide over there by M23. I don’t want to make this into the Africa politics thread but I wanted to bring that up to say that they aren’t ignoring everything that’s going on in the world. Could they do better? Obviously but that can be said for everyone. A lot of these issues are indeed Russian/Iran led as well as US/UK led.

Yeah they're only not ignoring the Israel /Gaza one

Absolutely most of these issues are Russian / Iran lead. Even Gaza

[magnkarl]

1 hour ago, Rustibrooks said:

I compared their security voting intentions/the ICJ case. IMO I think they can be compared. What I will say though and I said it to specifically you at the time of the UN votes, I don’t think geopolitics should matter for what’s right and wrong. I obviously understand why countries hands are tied with certain things.
 

I’m aware SA hosted the RSF and they are a horrible lot(that’s why I said South Africa aren’t perfect). Also recently SA have sent a security force to DR Congo to help with the cobalt mining genocide over there by M23. I don’t want to make this into the Africa politics thread but I wanted to bring that up to say that they aren’t ignoring everything that’s going on in the world. Could they do better? Obviously but that can be said for everyone. A lot of these issues are indeed Russian/Iran led as well as US/UK led.

You seem to jump straight past the part where SA sees genocide only when their political alliance’s enemies commit them. Hosting RSF is up there with Qatar hiding Hamas leaders and putting all blame on Israel.

SA are hypocrites. That’s why they’re the only country pursuing this and not a truely neutral country like Ireland or one of the smaller Pacific states. They’re acting like Russia and Iran’s judicial arm, willingly.

[Rustibrooks]

1 hour ago, bickster said:

Yeah they're only not ignoring the Israel /Gaza one

Absolutely most of these issues are Russian / Iran lead. Even Gaza

 

31 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

You seem to jump straight past the part where SA sees genocide only when their political alliance’s enemies commit them. Hosting RSF is up there with Qatar hiding Hamas leaders and putting all blame on Israel.

SA are hypocrites. That’s why they’re the only country pursuing this and not a truely neutral country like Ireland or one of the smaller Pacific states. They’re acting like Russia and Iran’s judicial arm, willingly.

Ok my points been missed by both of you so I’ll rephrase it.

I and many others said Ukraine voting to abstain on a ceasefire back in October/November in the UN was hypocritical considering they are going through something similar to what’s happening in Gaza. However this was explained as them doing so due to political relations etc. Which I understand.

SA are bringing Israel to the ICJ on a case of committing possible genocide. They too have abstained or voted against any sort of ceasefire/peace due to their relation to Russia/ being apart of the BRICS alliance. However they have been criticised for the case due to that standing. So I’m asking what is the actual difference if we are basing it on their motives? 
 

Are we going to say that no country that has some sort of deal with Russia/BRICS can critique Israel for their actions? 
 

SA are wrong for not stepping in with the Sudan situation and to roll out the red carpet for the RSF leader. However they are right for bringing Israel to ICJ, people seem to make the two mutually exclusive when they shouldn’t considering that most countries in the world have done some f’d up stuff.

Edit - By the way I’m going to make this clear - I am not comparing Ukraine vs SA, I’m specifically comparing the motives of the two with voting/the ICJ case

Edited January 14 by Rustibrooks

[bickster]

1 hour ago, Rustibrooks said:

So I’m asking what is the actual difference if we are basing it on their motives? 

And I'll give you the same answer again. South Africa hasn't been invaded by Russia. I'm not sure why you can’t see that Ukraine is entirely reliant on western countries for its very existence so really must do what it has to do to survive. If you can’t see that South Africa and Ukraine are in completely different positions. South Africa is voting as an ally of Russia. Ukraine is doing what it needs to do to survive, let’s also not forget that Israel is currently home to 15,000 Jewish refugees from Ukraine, Kyiv is helped in its defence by an Israeli early warning alert system, Israel has been involved in the release of well regarded soldiers such as the defenders of Mariupol /Asovstal etc in act some of the Azovstal survivors recouperated in Israel. Sure Israel could probably have done more for Ukraine but it hasn’t just been doing nothing either. Ukraine needs its support. South Africa on the other hand have just picked a side and are playing their part.

There’s also the fact that Ukraine has a Jewish population and one of some historical significance too. The leader of the Hasidic Jews tomb is in Ukraine and even though the war is ongoing, thousands still make the pilgrimage each year. There is also a monument in Kyiv to the Babyn Yar massacre, one of the biggest single massacres of Jews in the holocaust

And then there’s Zelensky himself, he's Jewish. The relationship between Ukraine and Israel is enormously complicated. But they did as I evidenced criticise the Israeli attack on the hospital and called for a two state solution

.Like I said, comparing the two countries voting actions is daft, they aren’t comparable

[Rustibrooks]

10 minutes ago, bickster said:

And I'll give you the same answer again. South Africa hasn't been invaded by Russia. I'm not sure why you can’t see that Ukraine is entirely reliant on western countries for its very existence so really must do what it has to do to survive. If you can’t see that South Africa and Ukraine are in completely different positions. South Africa is voting as an ally of Russia. Ukraine is doing what it needs to do to survive, let’s also not forget that Israel is currently home to 15,000 Jewish refugees from Ukraine, Kyiv is helped in its defence by an Israeli early warning alert system, Israel has been involved in the release of well regarded soldiers such as the defenders of Mariupol /Asovstal etc in act some of the Azovstal survivors recouperated in Israel. Sure Israel could probably have done more for Ukraine but it hasn’t just been doing nothing either. Ukraine needs its support. South Africa on the other hand have just picked a side and are playing their part.

There’s also the fact that Ukraine has a Jewish population and one of some historical significance too. The leader of the Hasidic Jews tomb is in Ukraine and even though the war is ongoing, thousands still make the pilgrimage each year. There is also a monument in Kyiv to the Babyn Yar massacre, one of the biggest single massacres of Jews in the holocaust

And then there’s Zelensky himself, he's Jewish. The relationship between Ukraine and Israel is enormously complicated. But they did as I evidenced criticise the Israeli attack on the hospital and called for a two state solution

.Like I said, comparing the two countries voting actions is daft, they aren’t comparable

Thanks for the reply.
 

Again I just said I get your point from a geopolitical standpoint, I don’t get the sarcasm/putting words in my mouth if that’s what you are intending. It was a question I asked because all of this seems like whataboutism to me hence why I’ve pressed for why it’s the case. (Questioning SA’s motives)

I’m aware that Ukraine and Israel have a complicated relationship. Russia and Israel also had one thought that’s likely strained due to the Gaza conflict and Ukrainian war. Though admittedly I didn’t know to what extent they have helped each other before your comment. 
 

From SA’s perspective, they also have a strained relationship with US/UK from the Mandela days and amongst other things that predate everything.(when they labelled him a terrorist). So to me it’s understandable to some degree why they might side with BRICS which I have my own criticisms of. However clearly they haven’t totally turned a blind eye to what happened October 7th as pointed out in their opening statement of their case. This is why I asked you both, can no country that’s aligned with BRICS criticise/bring forth a case about Israel then in you twos eyes? 

 

[bickster]

4 minutes ago, Rustibrooks said:

Thanks for the reply.
 

Again I just said I get your point from a geopolitical standpoint, I don’t get the sarcasm/putting words in my mouth if that’s what you are intending. It was a question I asked because all of this seems like whataboutism to me hence why I’ve pressed for why it’s the case. (Questioning SA’s motives)

I’m aware that Ukraine and Israel have a complicated relationship. Russia and Israel also had one thought that’s likely strained due to the Gaza conflict and Ukrainian war. Though admittedly I didn’t know to what extent they have helped each other before your comment. 
 

From SA’s perspective, they also have a strained relationship with US/UK from the Mandela days and amongst other things that predate everything.(when they labelled him a terrorist). So to me it’s understandable to some degree why they might side with BRICS which I have my own criticisms of. However clearly they haven’t totally turned a blind eye to what happened October 7th as pointed out in their opening statement of their case. This is why I asked you both, can no country that’s aligned with BRICS criticise/bring forth a case about Israel then in you twos eyes? 

 

The whataboutism in this conversation came from people who think South Africa is acting out of some sort of moral principal based on their past.

People pointed out that South Africa weren’t acting out of some superior moral high ground

What about Ukraine…

Is how I read the conversation.

It wasnt people saying that South Africa is a bad actor in this that mention Ukraine.

Me saying I’d already answered the question isn’t sarcasm, it’s fact. I then gave you a more detailed answer to aid your understanding. I’m really not sure what words I've put in your mouth

[bickster]

9 minutes ago, Rustibrooks said:

Russia and Israel also had one thought that’s likely strained due to the Gaza conflict and Ukrainian war.

There’s an argument to say that Israel did exactly what Russia expected them to do in response to Hamas.