chrisp65 Posted May 17 Share Posted May 17 1 hour ago, magnkarl said: One placard? I suggest you head down to London and have a walk around the Pro-Palestinian protests. Here's a few from a quick google, since you seem to think it's a small problem. ' I don't see anyone confronting these people if it's a tiny minority, I rather see people joining in. Who called Israel a beacon of hope? Again, Pro-Palestinians show an almost uncanny ability to deny that their side is doing anything wrong. They don't want to be confronted with hostages, terror, toppling the only majority Christian nation in the ME(Lebanon) and the general "#¤% Palestinians have caused throughout this saga. Israel is obviously not a beacon of hope, but it is by far the most democratic, tolerant and progressive state in a sea of undemocratic fundamentalist nations barring its most recent right wing idiot government. It’s both sides doing it. There was an official of the Israeli govt a few days ago throwing around anti semitism accusations at anyone and any organisation that wasn’t fully supportive of Israel. I don’t recall who it was but he was on R4 and accused South Africa and a few other countries of ‘blood libel’. There are disgusting ignorant people on both sides. If I lived in Gaza, I think I’d probably struggle to say Israel was more progressive and tolerant than Hamas. That’s the seed of revenge Israel is deliberately sowing, an intention to create a forever war. Just like the sick **** on the other side. Two cheeks of the same foul arse. Which puts nasty placards in to some sort of perspective. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wainy316 Posted May 17 Share Posted May 17 Likud - words removed IDF - words removed Hamas - words removed Iran & it's proxies - words removed Egyptian Government - words removed All have a proportion of blame for the plight of the Palestinian people 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted May 17 Share Posted May 17 (edited) 2 hours ago, chrisp65 said: It’s both sides doing it. There was an official of the Israeli govt a few days ago throwing around anti semitism accusations at anyone and any organisation that wasn’t fully supportive of Israel. I don’t recall who it was but he was on R4 and accused South Africa and a few other countries of ‘blood libel’. There are disgusting ignorant people on both sides. If I lived in Gaza, I think I’d probably struggle to say Israel was more progressive and tolerant than Hamas. That’s the seed of revenge Israel is deliberately sowing, an intention to create a forever war. Just like the sick **** on the other side. Two cheeks of the same foul arse. Which puts nasty placards in to some sort of perspective. The issue is that the people in the UK aren't protesting in Israel though. Israel is one of the parties involved. They've made the racist attacks on one of Britain's smallest minorities skyrocket while pretending to protest for Palestine. What Israel does should matter as much as what Hamas does to people protesting in London. It affects the communities here when placards by people like that are at the forefront of the protest claiming to want peace. I'm starting to wonder if that is what these protests really want, when they're allowing open calls for the erasure of the only Jewish state in the world, more terror (intifada) and have open antisemitic idiots with clear breaches of law and tropes walking with them. Where's the internal justice within these groups? I struggle to find anyone who confronts them, they're all just sheepishly walking along to the same shouts about genocide, intifada and from one aquatic body to the next. I don't know why the 'left' struggles so hard with not steering straight into a ditch (if you can call these people lefties, most of them are probably Galloway supporters). The idiot you talk about (Israel) is not walking through the streets of London intimidating a tiny minority, they're making a fool out of themselves on TV. There's a massive difference. When 1 million people join him, with a fair few of them holding placards wanting to erase Islamic states we can compare. Edited May 17 by magnkarl 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omariqy Posted May 17 Share Posted May 17 41 minutes ago, Wainy316 said: Likud - words removed IDF - words removed Hamas - words removed Iran & it's proxies - words removed Egyptian Government - words removed All have a proportion of blame for the plight of the Palestinian people Spot on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandy Lifeboats Posted May 17 Share Posted May 17 3 hours ago, omariqy said: Oh what a beacon of hope Israel is. The people in Gaza should be grateful. Lots of generalisations going on in this thread and lots of forgetting of the numerous war crimes Israel commits on a yearly basis, even before the occupation. 99% of protestors are anti Hamas but suddenly they are all pro Hamas. Using one placard as an example. Glad I don't go on this thread that much anymore. Strange. I don't see any of the things you mention in this thread. I see a group of people discussing the matter in a polite and reasonable way. I see blame being apportioned to both sides. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panto_Villan Posted May 17 Share Posted May 17 9 hours ago, Mandy Lifeboats said: I need to get this off my chest. I know I will take a lot of stick for it, but here goes...... Prior to the Hamas attacks the Gaza Strip was mostly peaceful. There were no/a tiny amount of Israel forces in Gaza. There was a clearly defined border. Palestinians administered the land and the population. The majority of the population had access to schools and medical care. The world was sending aid designed to make their lives better. Israel was providing water and electricity. Israel controlled the borders in an attempt to stop arms shipments into the country. They mainly succeeded but repeated missile launches showed that weapons were still making it inside to the racist, sexist, homophobic Hamas. To my simple mind, that's a pretty good deal for an occupied people. I am sure the Palestinian didn't consider themselves to be "free" in the western definition of the word. But many wouldn't have been "free" in the western definition of the word if Israel didn't exist. I hate the lack of balance in this whole argument. I hate the failure to recognise the clear facts. I hate that we have marches highlighting the Palestinian civilian deaths without mentioning the Israel civilian deaths. I hate that a complex situation with 4000 years of history behind it has become a "Good v Evil" issue when it's nothing of the sort. Hmmm, I think life in occupied Gaza was pretty bad prior to the Hamas attacks tbh - if I recall correctly it was the West Bank that was relatively wealthy (for the region) and generally peaceful, with lots of Palestinians that worked in Israel. But even that wasn’t a great life. For example I believe Israelis and Palestinians in the West Bank had different legal rights; Palestinians committing crimes would be tried in a military court whereas Israelis committing the same crime went before a civilian jury etc. It’s clearly a conflict where both sides have done lots of bad things to one another, but I think in the last 15-20 years Israel has been the worse of the two. Lots of the complaints people have about Israel are still valid, even if there’s also a lot of bad faith criticism to go with that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omariqy Posted May 17 Share Posted May 17 59 minutes ago, Panto_Villan said: Hmmm, I think life in occupied Gaza was pretty bad prior to the Hamas attacks tbh - if I recall correctly it was the West Bank that was relatively wealthy (for the region) and generally peaceful, with lots of Palestinians that worked in Israel. But even that wasn’t a great life. For example I believe Israelis and Palestinians in the West Bank had different legal rights; Palestinians committing crimes would be tried in a military court whereas Israelis committing the same crime went before a civilian jury etc. It’s clearly a conflict where both sides have done lots of bad things to one another, but I think in the last 15-20 years Israel has been the worse of the two. Lots of the complaints people have about Israel are still valid, even if there’s also a lot of bad faith criticism to go with that. I mean just watch any documentary prior to October 7th. We don’t even need to focus on Gaza. The Nakba 76th anniversary which is referring to the catastrophe of what happened was this week. It goes way beyond October 7th. I’ve always maintained that I completely understand the context of Israel being founded and how Jewish people have been persecuted throughout history and continue to be. It never gave the Zionists the right to do what they did and we are living with consequences of it now. There’s a reason why so many holocaust survivors and their family members are staunch critics of Israel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panto_Villan Posted May 17 Share Posted May 17 (edited) 47 minutes ago, omariqy said: I mean just watch any documentary prior to October 7th. We don’t even need to focus on Gaza. The Nakba 76th anniversary which is referring to the catastrophe of what happened was this week. It goes way beyond October 7th. I’ve always maintained that I completely understand the context of Israel being founded and how Jewish people have been persecuted throughout history and continue to be. It never gave the Zionists the right to do what they did and we are living with consequences of it now. There’s a reason why so many holocaust survivors and their family members are staunch critics of Israel. But surely even that's not clear-cut? If you accept Israel has a right to exist, then the Zionists seem more like the wronged party in the initial stages of the formation of Israel. At least to me, that is - I'm happy to listen to your perspective on it. From what I can tell, they were promised a state in 1917 and the local Arabs spent the best part of 30 years opposing it, and after the UN plan was unveiled in 1947 there's so much outrage among the local Arabs that some of their territory might be given to the Jews that it sparks a civil war. Then when Israel declare independence along the UN-appointed borders, the neighbouring Arab states declare war on them and attack them. I'll be the first to admit I don't know the history of the period in any great detail, but I just double checked that and it seems to be true. So isn't the fundamental issue that nobody in the region except the Zionists believed Israel had any right to exist, and if the Arabs had accepted the creation of Israel we probably could have avoided about a hundred years of violence and bloodshed? Obviously ethnically cleansing the Palestinians off Israeli lands is bad, but given their views it doesn't really seem like they could have been integrated into Israel either? Edited May 17 by Panto_Villan 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted May 17 Share Posted May 17 13 hours ago, Mandy Lifeboats said: I need to get this off my chest. I know I will take a lot of stick for it, but here goes...... Prior to the Hamas attacks the Gaza Strip was mostly peaceful. There were no/a tiny amount of Israel forces in Gaza. There was a clearly defined border. Palestinians administered the land and the population. The majority of the population had access to schools and medical care. The world was sending aid designed to make their lives better. Israel was providing water and electricity. Israel controlled the borders in an attempt to stop arms shipments into the country. They mainly succeeded but repeated missile launches showed that weapons were still making it inside to the racist, sexist, homophobic Hamas. To my simple mind, that's a pretty good deal for an occupied people. I am sure the Palestinian didn't consider themselves to be "free" in the western definition of the word. But many wouldn't have been "free" in the western definition of the word if Israel didn't exist. I hate the lack of balance in this whole argument. I hate the failure to recognise the clear facts. I hate that we have marches highlighting the Palestinian civilian deaths without mentioning the Israel civilian deaths. I hate that a complex situation with 4000 years of history behind it has become a "Good v Evil" issue when it's nothing of the sort. As a hypothetical, if the nazi’s had won, stole your parents house, burnt their land, killed your family, and moved you to a refugee camp. How long would it be before it was reasonable that you or your children said ‘well fair enough, its been peaceful a while now and we do get sent some aid’? I think it’s a little more complex than ‘prior to the Hamas attacks it was mostly peaceful’. Both sides have been trying to kill the other for quite a while. One side currently has a huge upper hand, they are capable of modern industrial warfare. The other side finds it easy to radicalise the poor and the hungry and the angry. Suggesting they should just accept their lot is not a message we are prepared to accept for the people of Mariupol, why would it be acceptable for Gaza City? We didn’t think that of Soweto in the 1976 (well, lots of us did actually but you get the point). Do we believe the people of Hong Kong should just aim for a quiet life? We all know its far more complex than getting a pretty good deal for an occupied people. By more complex, I also completely see that there are Israeli’s that have suffered equally, that there are now Israeli families that have now grown up over generations only ever knowing that stolen house as home. Should those grand children be punished, dispossessed, moved to refugee camps? It’s close to impossible to resolve, but choosing one side and telling the other side to suck it up, I just don’t see that working. Perhaps the start of the next new start, would be to get the industrialised military of the richer team to stop the revenge now? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Posted May 18 Share Posted May 18 11 hours ago, omariqy said: I mean just watch any documentary prior to October 7th. We don’t even need to focus on Gaza. The Nakba 76th anniversary which is referring to the catastrophe of what happened was this week. It goes way beyond October 7th. I’ve always maintained that I completely understand the context of Israel being founded and how Jewish people have been persecuted throughout history and continue to be. It never gave the Zionists the right to do what they did and we are living with consequences of it now. There’s a reason why so many holocaust survivors and their family members are staunch critics of Israel. There's a really good louis theroux programme on israeli illegal land occupation from a few years ago. Available on iplayer 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandy Lifeboats Posted May 18 Share Posted May 18 (edited) 9 hours ago, chrisp65 said: As a hypothetical, if the nazi’s had won, stole your parents house, burnt their land, killed your family, and moved you to a refugee camp. How long would it be before it was reasonable that you or your children said ‘well fair enough, its been peaceful a while now and we do get sent some aid’? Hypothetically, if Hamas had raped, kidnapped and murdered your 17 year old daughter whilst she was attending a peace-camp would you just shrug your shoulders and say "I suppose that was a legitimate form of resistance. Let's leave them alone and ask them not to do it again?" Of course not. That's not a normal human reaction. There is blame on both sides. That's been much opinion throughout this thread. But if you defend Israel's or criticise Palestine you are portrayed as a monster. You question above is typical of that. I did lose ancestors to the Nazis. An ancestor was tortured to death on the Burma railroad. Do I hate the Germans, Austrians or Japanese? No. Did my parents? No. Did my grandparents? Yes and no. They suffered the death of fathers and brothers. They weren't huge fans of Germany or Japan. But neither did they seek revenge or victimise any German or Japanese they came across. Southern Cypriots aren't waging a terrorist war on Turkey. Bosnians, Croatian and Serbs aren't lobbing missiles at one another. Poles and Germans aren't still waging guerilla warfare. Argentinians are safe to walk the streets of UK and vist the Falklands. At some point both sides have to move on. Let's discuss both sides of the argument and have a balanced view. It can do no harm. Edited May 18 by Mandy Lifeboats Added details 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted May 18 Share Posted May 18 44 minutes ago, Mandy Lifeboats said: Hypothetically, if Hamas had raped, kidnapped and murdered your 17 year old daughter whilst she was attending a peace-camp would you just shrug your shoulders and say "I suppose that was a legitimate form of resistance. Let's leave them alone and ask them not to do it again?" Of course not. That's not a normal human reaction. There is blame on both sides. That's been much opinion throughout this thread. But if you defend Israel's or criticise Palestine you are portrayed as a monster. You question above is typical of that. I did lose ancestors to the Nazis. An ancestor was tortured to death on the Burma railroad. Do I hate the Germans, Austrians or Japanese? No. Did my parents? No. Did my grandparents? Yes and no. They suffered the death of fathers and brothers. They weren't huge fans of Germany or Japan. But neither did they seek revenge or victimise any German or Japanese they came across. Southern Cypriots aren't waging a terrorist war on Turkey. Bosnians, Croatian and Serbs aren't lobbing missiles at one another. Poles and Germans aren't still waging guerilla warfare. Argentinians are safe to walk the streets of UK and vist the Falklands. At some point both sides have to move on. Let's discuss both sides of the argument and have a balanced view. It can do no harm. I haven’t shrugged my shoulders and said let’s leave them alone, and you haven’t been portrayed as a monster. You are reading things that just aren’t there. This thread has become close to unusable. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandy Lifeboats Posted May 18 Share Posted May 18 (edited) 5 hours ago, chrisp65 said: I haven’t shrugged my shoulders and said let’s leave them alone, and you haven’t been portrayed as a monster. You are reading things that just aren’t there. This thread has become close to unusable. I didn't say that you have "shrugged your shoulders and said let's leave them alone". In fact, I actually said you wouldn't do that because it's not a normal reaction. . Nor did I say that anyone here has portrayed me as a monster. If you look back at my posts a page or two you will see I actually commended this thread for being a place where we can have a polite and balanced discussion. But Villatalk isn't typical of society. British Jews are being physically attacked because of the actions of a foreign government. This thread isn't unusable. In fact it's far less emotive and aggressive than many threads on topic. Edited May 18 by Mandy Lifeboats Speeling mishsteaks 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omariqy Posted May 18 Share Posted May 18 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted May 19 VT Supporter Share Posted May 19 That's rather similar to the US states legislation that makes it illegal for organisations receiving government funding to engage in BDS activities. Which should tell you everything you need to know about why BDS is important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharkyvilla Posted May 19 Share Posted May 19 The Iranian President looks to have been in a helicopter crash. Most likely fog-related rather than sabotage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted May 19 Share Posted May 19 Just now, sharkyvilla said: The Iranian President looks to have been in a helicopter crash. Most likely fog-related rather than sabotage. You don’t often hear about survivors from helicopter crashes… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted May 19 Moderator Share Posted May 19 13 minutes ago, Genie said: You don’t often hear about survivors from helicopter crashes… Not sure crash is the right term. The reports I read said “hard landing” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted May 19 Share Posted May 19 (edited) 2 minutes ago, bickster said: Not sure crash is the right term. The reports I read said “hard landing” I’ve seen that too but it doesn’t seem clear if anyone knows the situation yet. Maybe they are trying to avoid panic at this stage. Edited May 19 by Genie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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