Israel, Palestine and Iran

[Keyblade]

1 minute ago, bickster said:

Not true

At the start of the conflict, on the 9th of October:

Quote

Today, the leaders of France, Germany, Italy, the United Kingdom and the United States of America released the following joint statement following their call: 

Today, we — President Macron of France, Chancellor Scholz of Germany, Prime Minister Meloni of Italy, Prime Minister Sunak of the United Kingdom, and President Biden of the United States — express our steadfast and united support to the State of Israel, and our unequivocal condemnation of Hamas and its appalling acts of terrorism.
 
We make clear that the terrorist actions of Hamas have no justification, no legitimacy, and must be universally condemned. There is never any justification for terrorism.  In recent days, the world has watched in horror as Hamas terrorists massacred families in their homes, slaughtered over 200 young people enjoying a music festival, and kidnapped elderly women, children, and entire families, who are now being held as hostages.
 
Our countries will support Israel in its efforts to defend itself and its people against such atrocities. We further emphasize that this is not a moment for any party hostile to Israel to exploit these attacks to seek advantage.
 
All of us recognize the legitimate aspirations of the Palestinian people, and support equal measures of justice and freedom for Israelis and Palestinians alike. But make no mistake: Hamas does not represent those aspirations, and it offers nothing for the Palestinian people other than more terror and bloodshed.
 
Over the coming days, we will remain united and coordinated, together as allies, and as common friends of Israel, to ensure Israel is able to defend itself, and to ultimately set the conditions for a peaceful and integrated Middle East region. 

Clicky

Given how events have since transpired, including a $15bn aid package from the US, I can't see how it's anything other than support?

[bickster]

13 minutes ago, Keyblade said:

At the start of the conflict, on the 9th of October:

Clicky

Given how events have since transpired, including a $15bn aid package from the US, I can't see how it's anything other than support?

Canada at least has subsequently called for a ceasefire

[Keyblade]

1 minute ago, bickster said:

Canada at least has subsequently called for a ceasefire

Have they? As recently as yesterday I remember reading that opposition leaders have been pushing Trudeau to call for a ceasefire. 

[bickster]

13 minutes ago, Keyblade said:

Have they? As recently as yesterday I remember reading that opposition leaders have been pushing Trudeau to call for a ceasefire. 

You might be right I think, I must have misread that somewhere because when I search now it doesn’t appear to be correct

[Keyblade]

4 minutes ago, bickster said:

You might be right I think, I must have misread that somewhere because when I search now it doesn’t appear to be correct

Yeah I was surprised. He's been holding pretty resolute in not saying it outright. I think he called for a "truce" at one point.

[magnkarl]

1 hour ago, OutByEaster? said:

I think it's always worth remembering a key difference in that our nation opposed ISIS, our society did, our bloc as it were; conceptually, politically, militarily, in every way you'd expect - the people of the UK didn't need to protest it - the government was already doing the right thing. 

Partly the protests are that we are implicit in the slaughter, our government is, the feeling that Israel is part of the wider "us" and we're doing it - shoulder to shoulder - protest comes a little from guilt and the anger of political impotence.

 

But to be fair, as I gather it from the few people I know in Israel, we seem to ignore the same rules we’re so keen on our only real similar ally in the Middle East to follow when push comes to shove, starting with nuking Japanese towns to firebombing German women and children, to napalming a whole country, to carpet bombing Baghdad, Tripoli, Mogadishu and Mosul.

There were protests against some of said things, but not in the way we’re seeing now. There are definite racial undertones and bias (see stwc) to some of the current protests, I see it every day I pick up my granddaughter. It’s let people who had racist undertones feel emboldened to hide their idiocy under a legitimate Palestinian cause, and there’s very little reaction from the people hosting said marches to distance themselves from it.

We instead have said organisations complaining that police are interfering in arresting people saying fairly horrific things and threatening people in the UK who have very little to do with Israel.

Edited November 3, 2023 by magnkarl

[fruitvilla]

2 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

There are definite racial undertones to some of the current protests

I can't help but suspect that it is more religious than racial. There is the Islamic - Jewish chasm, and then the political aspects, left - right. 

Hamas full well knew what the result would be of their incursion. Israelis know full well what the results of their reprisal will be.

My particular bias is that I hold the Israelis to a higher standard than I do its neighbours.

[magnkarl]

3 minutes ago, fruitvilla said:

I can't help but suspect that it is more religious than racial. There is the Islamic - Jewish chasm, and then the political aspects, left - right. 

Hamas full well knew what the result would be of their incursion. Israelis know full well what the results of their reprisal will be.

My particular bias is that I hold the Israelis to a higher standard than I do its neighbours.

In some cases, sure. The moment you put up a Nazi symbol or start talking about gassing Jews, or waving posters around like in Poland where someone’s got ‘clean up the world’ with a David’s star in a bin we’re past that. 

I implore anyone who doesn’t believe this to go and look at the marches themselves, some of the chants and posters being thrown around are Moseley-esque.

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

Anwar

Edited November 3, 2023 by JAMAICAN-VILLAN

[KentVillan]

50 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

There are definite racial undertones and bias (see stwc) to some of the current protests, I see it every day I pick up my granddaughter. It’s let people who had racist undertones feel emboldened to hide their idiocy under a legitimate Palestinian cause, and there’s very little reaction from the people hosting said marches to distance themselves from it.

Sadly this is definitely true, and you can see it in the rabidity of the obsession in some quarters where they simply do not pay much attention to similar atrocities anywhere else, and in their prescriptions for the future.

At the same time, what is happening in Gaza is horrendous and indefensible.

Israel is naturally focused on more in the west because it is a western ally, because many Israelis have European heritage or connections, and so on.

It didn’t help that Netanyahu deliberately pushed the definition of antisemitism to encompass things that clearly weren’t antisemitism at all, in the political discourse of western nations, and the backlash has emboldened those who are genuinely antisemitic.

And I say this as someone who is very sympathetic to the impact of all of this on British Jewish people, and who agrees with you on the double standards in the Arab world.

As ever it needs calm, reasonable voices who can talk without hysteria about things that naturally evoke hysteria because they are so shocking at times.

[Thug]

1 hour ago, magnkarl said:

In some cases, sure. The moment you put up a Nazi symbol or start talking about gassing Jews, or waving posters around like in Poland where someone’s got ‘clean up the world’ with a David’s star in a bin we’re past that. 

I implore anyone who doesn’t believe this to go and look at the marches themselves, some of the chants and posters being thrown around are Moseley-esque.

I absolutely hate this.  If you’re going to march against oppression and racism, don’t bring oppression and racism with you.  (But more importantly don’t harbour these bullshit ideas in the first place)

These people absolutely should be arrested and prosecuted.  Not the brightest people, especially when you look around and look who’s marching WITH you.

I do think (and certainly hope) these were a minority of idiots who go along just to cause trouble or drag the narrative off track.

 

[OutByEaster?]

4 hours ago, magnkarl said:

There were protests against some of said things, but not in the way we’re seeing now.

The stop the war protest in 2003 was the largest single protest in UK history. I think we need to recognise that the people of the UK have a history of protesting against acts of evil regardless of who commits them.

I've said earlier in the thread and it's still absolutely true - anyone that's blaming British Jews for the crimes of the Israeli government is an idiot. It's always quite good to see that the protests in the train stations have largely been lead by Jewish groups and that the policing of the larger marches has also proven to be successful in preventing those elements that can't see the forest for the trees having any kind of real voice.

It's the smaller stuff where we see the pockets of extremism I think and the morons outside your grandchild's school sound horrendous - I hope she's well looked after at the school and is doing okay. Protesting around a school that has kids in it, is in itself a horrible thing to do, adding in racism, anti-semitism or frankly anything that's designed to scare children is cowardly and disgraceful. I think I said before, if you want to protest a nation, go stand outside its embassy or join one of the organised protest groups that have rules and sensibility. A teacher in Hounslow isn't bombing Gaza.

[magnkarl]

1 minute ago, OutByEaster? said:

Sorry, I've been out and I might be being daft - but what's "stwc"?

I googled, but I'm pretty sure the Sunday Times Wine Club don't have a political arm.

 

Stop The War Campaign.. though the Sunday Times Wine Club does sound better.

[bickster]

2 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

Stop The War Campaign.. though the Sunday Times Wine Club does sound better.

Coalition not campaign

AKA the friends of Putin Campaign

[OutByEaster?]

Deleted cos i found it a moment afterward, but thank you.

 

[Jareth]

Who else behaves like Israel? They’re hitting ambulances. Absolute bastards. 

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

23 minutes ago, Jareth said:

Who else behaves like Israel? They’re hitting ambulances. Absolute bastards. 

9000 plus civilians aka " human shields " killed so far ( Approximately half of them children )

But hey, they've confirmed 13 of those were Hamas Militants so operation is a roaring success so far.

Go team!

Edited November 4, 2023 by JAMAICAN-VILLAN

[Tumblerseven]

So if israel says they want to destroy hamas 30 000-40 000 terrorists in gaza. How many civilian deaths would be justified or acceptable? I dont think anyone in this forum answered this question once. 

[sne]

4 minutes ago, Tumblerseven said:

So if israel says they want to destroy hamas 30 000-40 000 terrorists in gaza. How many civilian deaths would be justified or acceptable? I dont think anyone in this forum answered this question once. 

Zero.

[Tumblerseven]

3 minutes ago, sne said:

Zero.

So fantasy world...

If number is zero and war always requires civilian deaths in your opinion what Israel had to do after October 7? nothing?