Israel, Palestine and Iran

[Mic09]

7 minutes ago, KentVillan said:

I disagree. One side has the upper hand, but they are surrounded by allies of the other side, and sceptical of how reliable their allies are.

Put it this way, forgetting the ethics and morals, would you want to be in the shoes of either party in this conflict? I think both sides are dealing with a level of fear and paranoia that we in the west can’t really relate to.

Absolutely. I appreciate the fear they must be going through. 

I always wondered why anyone would want to move to those lands considering what's going on there. I know I certainly wouldn't take my family there. 

But the trend of "eradication" of one nation from those lands is leaning very steeply in one direction, and has done for a long time. 

That is not to forget what the Jews have gone through in the past. Which of course justifies none of the actions they have been undertaking for a long time now. 

Edited October 12, 2023 by Mic09

[KentVillan]

20 minutes ago, Mic09 said:

I always wondered why anyone would want to move to those lands considering what's going on there. I know I certainly wouldn't take my family there. 

It's a good question.

Firstly, it's worth remembering that there were already Jews there since time immemorial. Secondly, that the migration of foreign Jews to Israel/Palestine started happening in the 1880s, well before the Holocaust.

But I imagine the major driving factor is that Anti-Semitism has been a problem across much of the world, and many Jews felt like Israel would offer them *more* safety and security, and more freedom to practice their culture and religion.

That may have been misguided, may have turned out to be wrong... but you can at least understand the thought process?

And like you, I massively sympathise with all the Palestinians who were displaced in this process, and who are justifiably angry. The whole thing is a mess.

[Panto_Villan]

1 hour ago, VILLAMARV said:

Thing is, if we dont do the strawman thing, we'll only be left remembering the reality - that when the IDF intentionally shoot children, journalists and disabled people the world is mostly silent and the oppression continues unabated.

 

What’s the strawman here?

The accusation is that Hamas have beheaded babies. It’s still unclear whether that’s true or not, but people are already saying “they’re dead either way, what does it matter? Killing people is bad whoever does it” as if it doesn’t matter either way whether it actually happened.

The intent and level of barbarism involved in a killing does matter, and if it comes out that Hamas have actually done this then I think it does affect the moral calculus of the situation.

You can see from my other posts I’m no supporter of Israel. Just think it’s a bit distasteful people are so keen to gloss over Hamas sawing babies heads off (assuming it actually happened).

[VILLAMARV]

22 minutes ago, KentVillan said:

All good, I know you're not picking an argument.

Where I would disagree is you can't just look at it from a humanitarian scorecard perspective, because you also have to factor in the hypotheticals - what does each side fear might happen if they don't act aggressively.

And this is where it becomes incredibly complicated. Both sides fear the complete loss of their people and what they see as their land. When hardliners on both sides have entirely contradictory goals, you end up with a situation where atrocities are justified in their minds as the natural price to pay for their own safety.

That doesn't mean justifying the atrocities, it's just you can see the moral complexities that play out in even rational, empathetic people caught up in this, let alone bloodthirsty sociopathic people.

I definitely agree to the extent that we all carry an internal bias by existing as ourselves. But it isn't about a scorecard or tally, it's solely about stopping human suffering. That's not mutually exclusive to the political, geographical, ideological issues being addressed just, as you said, the solutions have to come from within the two sides. The International community has been poised for some time to start this ball rolling as it were - or at the very least to attempt to do some good, but that UN veto is the thing that stand in the way of meaningful diplomatic pressure being applied. I think from a hunaitarian viewpoint though, you' still have those issues to address once the killing stops and the blockades cease. I appreciate this is easier said than done when we face many, many years of picking through the trauma and the learned behaviours of the last few generations involved.

[VILLAMARV]

11 minutes ago, Panto_Villan said:

What’s the strawman here?

 

4 hours ago, Panto_Villan said:

 if the IDF rounded up a bunch of children and publicly beheaded them, people wouldn’t be saying “it’s just the same as them being killed in an airstrike.” It would be considered much worse.

Perhaps it's more of a hollow man on reflection. either way you've constructed a fallacious argument here. An extreme hypothetical scenario with an invented response to it from a vague group.

Quote

 but people are already saying “they’re dead either way, what does it matter? Killing people is bad whoever does it” as if it doesn’t matter either way whether it actually happened.

Where have people said this? especially the bit about it not mattering

Quote

The accusation is that Hamas have beheaded babies. It’s still unclear whether that’s true or not, ...................The intent and level of barbarism involved in a killing does matter, and if it comes out that Hamas have actually done this then I think it does affect the moral calculus of the situation.

You can see from my other posts I’m no supporter of Israel. Just think it’s a bit distasteful people are so keen to gloss over Hamas sawing babies heads off (assuming it actually happened).

Firstly, personally I'll reserve any comment or judgement on specific events until there's some verification.

Secondly, and I accept this is just my personal view, but the thing I find distasteful is playing one upmanship with people's trauma. I accept in a court of Law for sentencing purposes we have harsher sentences for 'worse' crimes but I find it hard to understand the metrics of what you call moral calculus. How does one equate (assuming it's all happened as reported for arguments sake) the grotesque actions of Hamas this week, on top of all the other grotesque actions of Hamas and all the other atrocities committed down the years by Palestinian terrorism with the grotesque behaviour of the Isreali Government and military and the daily systematic torture of millions of people over years and years? That's one hell of an algorithm.

[VILLAMARV]

3 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

Every journalist shot in the head by the Israeli army has been an accident, we’ve been over this.

I think you'll find it has something to do with the mendacity of the UN.

[sne]

Israel ordering 1.1 million Palestinians to leave northern Gaza and move to southern Gaza. Obviously there is no place for them to go but I imagine that this will count as Israel warning them to get out and anything happening to them after this is now their own fault.

[LondonLax]

18 minutes ago, sne said:

Israel ordering 1.1 million Palestinians to leave northern Gaza and move to southern Gaza. Obviously there is no place for them to go but I imagine that this will count as Israel warning them to get out and anything happening to them after this is now their own fault.

I am wondering how the people in Gaza receive these warnings? I guess there would be some generators still with power but I would have thought it would be difficult to spread a message there at the moment?

[sne]

Just now, LondonLax said:

I am wondering how the people in Gaza receive these warnings? I guess there would be some generators still with power but I would have thought it would be difficult to spread a message there at the moment?

Guess the message is mainly for western media rather than the people of Gaza. Convenient that most people in Gaza will not be able to upload what happens on social media as the power will be out.

[StefanAVFC]

God social media is the biggest cesspool I’ve ever witnessed regarding this topic. Utterly depressing situation with utterly predictably depressing outcomes. 

[Jareth]

Israel have now killed approx 500 kids and they’ve only just begun. They don’t need to do this, those kids are not Hamas. It is not justified in any way whatsoever. 

[tinker]

19 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

God social media is the biggest cesspool I’ve ever witnessed regarding this topic. Utterly depressing situation with utterly predictably depressing outcomes. 

I'm not sure what positives come from social media, it has little added value and plenty of negatives.

[LondonLax]

4 minutes ago, tinker said:

I'm not sure what positives come from social media, it has little added value and plenty of negatives.

You are writing this comment on Social Media. There are huge positives from social media (giving a voice to the powerless, connecting people regardless of geography etc) but if it is unchecked it can cause big issues. 

[tinker]

15 minutes ago, Jareth said:

Israel have now killed approx 500 kids and they’ve only just begun. They don’t need to do this, those kids are not Hamas. It is not justified in any way whatsoever. 

Who can stoop the lowest competition driven by anger, hatred and evil people. 

These recent atrocities, from both sides, are so depressing you can see the fuel for another 50 years of death and destruction.

We're sending warships into this mess as well, I'm not sure what for but it's not a good look for us, IMHO. 

[bobzy]

21 minutes ago, Jareth said:

Israel have now killed approx 500 kids and they’ve only just begun. They don’t need to do this, those kids are not Hamas. It is not justified in any way whatsoever. 

As I said earlier, it’s a terrorist organisation vs a terrorist state. Horrific for every innocent civilian involved. 

[magnkarl]

12 hours ago, OutByEaster? said:

Egypt have opened the border and fast tracked it today - there's still a process which slows it up - and they've asked Israel if they'd mind not bombing it for a bit while they try to get some people out - Israel was bombing the area around the border crossing yesterday.

Is it though?

Washington Post

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Those who brave the risks to get to Rafah can’t be sure of any rewards. The  Egyptian authorities have closed their side of the crossing to prevent the  Palestinians from breaking out. 

There's also this, from Hamas.

Quote

War shakes convictions and changes priorities, so it is conceivable that many Gazans would now be open to leaving to save their families and themselves from injury or death. Some reports say many are heading southward to the Rafah crossing between Gaza and Egypt. 

But that journey is perilous and may be pointless. Not only do the Palestinians fleeing south run the gauntlet of Israeli bombs, but they also risk the wrath of Hamas. The terrorist group has closed the border in the past, and although it handed over control of the crossing to the Palestinian Authority five years ago, its gunmen keep an eye on comings and goings —and are not above exemplary executions to frighten the populace.

The Palestinians are a card in Hamas terror-stack.

[tinker]

4 minutes ago, LondonLax said:

You are writing this comment on Social Media. There are huge positives from social media (giving a voice to the powerless, connecting people regardless of geography etc) but if it is unchecked it can cause big issues. 

Villatalk is my weakness and a few other forums as well, single interest......

[StefanAVFC]

10 minutes ago, bobzy said:

As I said earlier, it’s a terrorist organisation vs a terrorist state. Horrific for every innocent civilian involved. 

Hence the utterly depressing I mentioned earlier as the unbridled support this terrorist state gets both from the public and governments is really something. 

[UpTheVilla26]

I have little to no knowledge of the whole situation over in the middle east, though it does seem everyone that borders Israel hates them. 

It also appears Iran is the driving force behind much of the troubles over there, I couldn't imagine a group of terrorists from the UK wading into France, indiscriminately killing people then Biden coming out and praising their actions, it's absolutely mental but basically what has happened. 

I can't see past this escalating and involving further countries. Syria seems an easy target for Israel but has ties to Putin who luckily has his own problems in Ukraine. What about Saudi Arabia, I read they seemed quite pleased by Hamas actions but that should be no surprise from a country that revels in beheadings and the like.

The whole thing, like Russia v Ukraine, is utterly depressing. 

 

[magnkarl]

19 minutes ago, UpTheVilla26 said:

I have little to no knowledge of the whole situation over in the middle east, though it does seem everyone that borders Israel hates them. 

It also appears Iran is the driving force behind much of the troubles over there, I couldn't imagine a group of terrorists from the UK wading into France, indiscriminately killing people then Biden coming out and praising their actions, it's absolutely mental but basically what has happened. 

I can't see past this escalating and involving further countries. Syria seems an easy target for Israel but has ties to Putin who luckily has his own problems in Ukraine. What about Saudi Arabia, I read they seemed quite pleased by Hamas actions but that should be no surprise from a country that revels in beheadings and the like.

The whole thing, like Russia v Ukraine, is utterly depressing. 

 

SA hates Iran. They're closer to Israel than to Palestine and have worked on several treaties with them this year.