Genie Posted September 2, 2022 Share Posted September 2, 2022 It sounds like he’s getting a watered down state funeral Quote Mr Peskov said Gorbachev's ceremony would have "elements" of a state funeral and that the state was helping to organise it. bbc Hopefully again they are so paranoid about “incidents” they can’t do what they’d usually do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted September 2, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted September 2, 2022 Do most Russians actually genuinely hate Gorbachev or is this just what they've been instructed to feel over the last 20 years? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted September 2, 2022 Moderator Share Posted September 2, 2022 7 minutes ago, sidcow said: Do most Russians actually genuinely hate Gorbachev or is this just what they've been instructed to feel over the last 20 years? Even before Putin, he was never popular, he destroyed the Soviet Union. The Russian mindset is not easy to understand 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandy Lifeboats Posted September 2, 2022 Share Posted September 2, 2022 11 minutes ago, sidcow said: Do most Russians actually genuinely hate Gorbachev or is this just what they've been instructed to feel over the last 20 years? Many feel that he destroyed the USSR and sold out to the West. A smaller number appreciate that the USSR was doomed and he broke it up without it descending into the chaos and civil wars that happened in Yugoslavia. Its worth mentioning that he very publicly supported Russia's annexation of Crimea in 2014. 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ciggiesnbeer Posted September 2, 2022 Share Posted September 2, 2022 (edited) 22 minutes ago, bickster said: Even before Putin, he was never popular, he destroyed the Soviet Union. The Russian mindset is not easy to understand I dunno, I think their neighbours understand them very well. Russia is a fascist imperialistic power. It is no accident all of Russias neighbors hate them, they break their word and solemn treaties at the drop of a hat. They hate them because Russia is an evil empire, friends to no one . It was true when Reagan said it and its true now. Edited September 2, 2022 by ciggiesnbeer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted September 2, 2022 Share Posted September 2, 2022 23 minutes ago, sidcow said: Do most Russians actually genuinely hate Gorbachev or is this just what they've been instructed to feel over the last 20 years? Imagine any tinpot empire. The people in the middle, from the ruling bit, enjoy all the benefits of drawing in the resources from the satellite bits. Then you get some woke ruler that let’s the satellite bits go, let’s them do their own thing. Now you’re physically smaller, and paying for the import of energy, water, bread, timber, oil. The bits of empire that used to be manipulated to be reliant on you can literally turn and face a different direction. Put their back to, stop being your tourist destination, learn a different language and prosper without you. Imagine being a citizen of that central, self important nation. You’d resent that change that the rest of the world celebrated. You’d resent the person that facilitated your loss of privilege. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted September 2, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted September 2, 2022 Quote The title was changed to Russia & it’s “Special Operation” in Ukraine Why? Is somebody trying to antagonise the apostrophe police? 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fun Factory Posted September 2, 2022 Share Posted September 2, 2022 (edited) 52 minutes ago, sidcow said: Do most Russians actually genuinely hate Gorbachev or is this just what they've been instructed to feel over the last 20 years? I doubt many have a positive opinion of him. In their eyes he accidentally destroyed their empire, and led to 10 odd years of economic regression. Much like what they will be getting again. It is also a long time ago so youngsters fed on state tv propaganda will also be fairly critical. At best they would see him as a naive fool being nice to the west. A interesting stat I keep looking at is in 1989 the last USSR census the population was over 285 million and the USA about 247 million Today Russia's population is 146 million and USA is over 332. Population obviously isn't everything but despite the recent bully boy efforts Russia is still ultimately just a mid ranking power now. Edited September 2, 2022 by The Fun Factory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted September 2, 2022 Share Posted September 2, 2022 Quote Russia's gas pipeline to Germany will not reopen as planned on Saturday, state energy firm Gazprom has said. The firm said it had found an oil leak in a turbine on the Nord Stream 1 pipeline, meaning it would be closed indefinitely. The pipeline has been shut down for the past three days for what Gazprom described as maintenance work. Link It does feel like the situation in Ukraine is starting to come to a head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted September 3, 2022 Share Posted September 3, 2022 8 hours ago, Genie said: Link It does feel like the situation in Ukraine is starting to come to a head. This happened just after Germany said their gas stores were full and EU announced they will split gas from the electricity market. What a coincidence! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted September 3, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted September 3, 2022 Quote The title was changed to Russia and its “Special Operation” in Ukraine 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted September 4, 2022 Share Posted September 4, 2022 one of our friends son , aged 18 , has been travelling around Europe this summer ... he spent last weekend in Kiev saw the pictures yesterday , a few sandbags here and there but he said everything is open and seemed pretty normal , only restriction in place is the night time curfew 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted September 4, 2022 Share Posted September 4, 2022 On 02/09/2022 at 19:47, sidcow said: Do most Russians actually genuinely hate Gorbachev or is this just what they've been instructed to feel over the last 20 years? not just Russians , when I travelled Astana to Almaty on the overnight sleeper train , basically everyone stays up drinking Vodka in the buffer car , so we sparked up some conversations with loads of Kazak people mostly in their 20's and 30's ... Glasnost and Perestroika came up at some point , they asked me if I knew any Russian and they were the only 2 I knew, they laughed at my wit , rather than my ignorance , but then the conversation after was along the lines of we don't like to talk about it over here , it was a very bad thing .. maybe it s a genuine thing , or maybe Kazak students get brainwashed by left wing teachers same as they do over here p.s anyone on instagram then checkout grunichka_a , who was unlucky enough to be our roommate in the 4 berth sleeper car , my view at 7:30 am as we pulled into Almaty , was her long legs and underwear as she climbed down from the bunk bed above mine , nice girl very chatty , at that time she was studying economics at uni , I'm think from her Instagram she decided to pursue a different career ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlwaysAVFC Posted September 4, 2022 Share Posted September 4, 2022 On 02/09/2022 at 18:36, bickster said: Unless you know he was checking if he needed to throw him out of the window Putin hated Gorbachev as did most Russians thats why he isn't getting a state funeral. In their eyes he gave away the empire Typing this without catching up, but I understand why Russa might feel the hate for Gorbachev, but was it not what happened to USSR/Russia that helped a lot of the oligarchs become what they are? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted September 4, 2022 Share Posted September 4, 2022 I’m surprised the events of this week haven’t gathered more headlines. No gas at all from Russia. Oil probably the next to be cut. Prices will go through the roof. Businesses will go bust. Governments will probably need trillions to ride this out, off the back of Covid too. It seems like there’s a game of bluff going on. Europe is says “so what?” to Russia as they weaponise energy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandy Lifeboats Posted September 4, 2022 Share Posted September 4, 2022 16 minutes ago, AlwaysAVFC said: Typing this without catching up, but I understand why Russa might feel the hate for Gorbachev, but was it not what happened to USSR/Russia that helped a lot of the oligarchs become what they are? Very few people know the truth but this is a very common theory. The oligarchs start off as sucessful business men. But they are also under obligation to support Putin and the needs of Russia in order to retain that wealth. If they agree to be part of the system they get to keep some of their wealth. If they decline, they are suddenly found to have evaded tax. That investigation discovers they are involved in other criminal acts. They are imprisoned and the state confiscates their wealth. Or they become very ill and fall from hospital windows. The oligarchs control the wealth (under supervision) and purchase business interests and property which would never be allowed to fall into the ownership of the Russia Government. This complex business empire allows numerous activities to take place. Most are legitimate. But many are illegal. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted September 4, 2022 Share Posted September 4, 2022 15 minutes ago, Genie said: I’m surprised the events of this week haven’t gathered more headlines. No gas at all from Russia. Oil probably the next to be cut. Prices will go through the roof. Businesses will go bust. Governments will probably need trillions to ride this out, off the back of Covid too. It seems like there’s a game of bluff going on. Europe is says “so what?” to Russia as they weaponise energy. 70,000 Czechs took to the streets of Prague today to say , sod Ukraine (and the EU reportedly) make friends with Russia again…. I wonder if this is likely to be a feeling in more and more countries when winter starts to bite 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandy Lifeboats Posted September 4, 2022 Share Posted September 4, 2022 3 minutes ago, Genie said: I’m surprised the events of this week haven’t gathered more headlines. No gas at all from Russia. Oil probably the next to be cut. Prices will go through the roof. Businesses will go bust. Governments will probably need trillions to ride this out, off the back of Covid too. It seems like there’s a game of bluff going on. Europe is says “so what?” to Russia as they weaponise energy. I remember the Cold War. The USSR was much bigger and more powerful than Russia is today. They had even more gas and oil. They had massive armed forces and the support of Ukraine, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Estonia, Latvia and a lot more countries which are now opposing them. The West bought very little from the USSR and exported very little to the USSR. It became a third world economy that was also trapped in an arms race with much richer countries. It collapsed. History is repeating. If Putin continues we will go back to those cold war days. It will take a few years to adjust, but the West will adjust much better and quicker than Russia. There are 2 ways out for Russia. 1. Break the will of the West and force Ukraine to give up land. 2. Kill/Remove Putin and then blame him for everything so that "normal" can resume. This winter will be hard. But not as hard as it will be for Russia. Income plunging. War costs. Population leaving. No $ £ or € to buy imports. No western investment or technology. But they will have nice warm homes. Even with record gas and oil prices the Russian Economy is now back to 2018 levels. With increased levels of sanctions they will be back to 2012 by Spring. It's going to be hard for the UK. But not as hard as WWIII. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted September 4, 2022 Share Posted September 4, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, tonyh29 said: 70,000 Czechs took to the streets of Prague today to say , sod Ukraine (and the EU reportedly) make friends with Russia again…. I wonder if this is likely to be a feeling in more and more countries when winter starts to bite Incidentally about the amount of people that vote for the far right and far left parties in Czechia. Clicky Quote Far-right and extreme-left elements coalesced at a “Czech Republic First” rally to call for a new agreement with Moscow over gas supplies and a halt to the sending of arms to Ukraine, while urging the centre-right government of the prime minister, Petr Fiala, to resign. You know you’re a good commie when you’re demonstrating with a nazi. These guys have the same kind of iq as the MAGA crowd, which the name of their demonstration perfectly illustrates. Edited September 4, 2022 by magnkarl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted September 5, 2022 Moderator Share Posted September 5, 2022 12 hours ago, magnkarl said: You know you’re a good commie when you’re demonstrating with a nazi. I've said this a few times but the boundaries between the two aren't that far apart You only have to look at RMT Tankie Eddie Dempsey in this country to see how close they are. His obituary in the Morning Star in 2015 (which was also published on Russia Insider - a Pro-Kremlin outlet) for Alexei Mozgovoi is a work of art, even in 2015 he was describing the DNR warlord as an Anti-fascist, a charismatic ant-fascist nonetheless. They very much are two sides of the same coin 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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