omariqy Posted May 1, 2018 Share Posted May 1, 2018 46 minutes ago, Stevo985 said: I don't think I agree. He should be sacked if we think that underperformance will carry on next season. If the opinion is (and I'm not saying mine is) "He underperformed this season but he'll get it right next season" then sacking him would be mental. A manager's job should be based on the future, not the past. If we don't go up this season, but Bruce can get us promoted next season, he should be kept on (again, I'm not saying that is my opinion, just making the point that no promotion shouldn't necessarily mean the sack) I agree with that statement but if we fail in the playoffs then why would anyone believe he can get us promoted next season? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrytini Posted May 1, 2018 Share Posted May 1, 2018 1 minute ago, omariqy said: I agree with that statement but if we fail in the playoffs then why would anyone believe he can get us promoted next season? I’m not sure anyone can have read this thread without having read the reasons why...but in a nutshell, to keep it brief, if we narrowly fail to get enough points to go up Automatically it’s surely not hard to picture why some might think he might get those extra few points next year ? Not saying it’s the only way to think, but surely it’s not hard to see why some might ? Or to put it another way, if we get 83 points this year is it really really far out/ whacky to think he might get 86 next year ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted May 1, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted May 1, 2018 (edited) 6 minutes ago, omariqy said: I agree with that statement but if we fail in the playoffs then why would anyone believe he can get us promoted next season? Well that's the question isn't it. Personally if we could keep this, or most of this, squad together then I think he would get us promoted next season. I think the first month or two of the season really killed us, plus having Jack and Kodjia missing for half and most of the season respectively also was a big hit. I think if we had this squad next season then we'd be more likely to hit the ground running at the start of the season and we'd have those big players for the season (hopefully!). In that scenario I'd be more than happy to stay with Bruce. However, the reason I would be reluctant is given the financial implications, I don't think we will be able to keep the squad together next season. It will likely be weakened unless they do some very clever dealings in the summer and so it would probably be better to give someone else a crack at it. So ultimately I personally probably WOULD sack him. But I can see scenarios where people wouldn't and that would be perfectly valid. So my point really was that failure this season shouldn't necessarily mean the sack. Edited May 1, 2018 by Stevo985 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junxs Posted May 1, 2018 Share Posted May 1, 2018 5 minutes ago, omariqy said: I agree with that statement but if we fail in the playoffs then why would anyone believe he can get us promoted next season? Especially when the squad wont be half as good and the budget considerably less than last season 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrytini Posted May 1, 2018 Share Posted May 1, 2018 Just now, Junxs said: Especially when the squad wont be half as good and the budget considerably less than last season Well again, we don’t know that. Its amazing how many people - not you specifically, or at all for all I know ! - who want Bruce gone back it up with reasons based on speculation. Secondly there is just as valid an argument to say if the Squad DOES undergo big changes the last thing we’d need to add to that is a different Manager. I can see arguments both ways. I rarely hear anyone who wants Bruce out acknowledging another valid side to the debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junxs Posted May 1, 2018 Share Posted May 1, 2018 1 minute ago, terrytini said: Well again, we don’t know that. Its amazing how many people - not you specifically, or at all for all I know ! - who want Bruce gone back it up with reasons based on speculation. Secondly there is just as valid an argument to say if the Squad DOES undergo big changes the last thing we’d need to add to that is a different Manager. I can see arguments both ways. I rarely hear anyone who wants Bruce out acknowledging another valid side to the debate. Err, yes we do. Its not speculation at all. You get 3 years of parachute payments and the 3rd year is minimal compared to the previous 2. Bruce and Wyness have been banging on about it all season. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted May 1, 2018 Author Share Posted May 1, 2018 With regards to bruces future I want to see how we perform in the play offs. If we dont give it a go and just lose witg no fight or passion then i would say he would be gine. But if we get unlucky lets say then i woukd consider sticking with bruce and give me 4 weeks into new season if we start as badly as we did this year then I'd get rid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted May 1, 2018 Share Posted May 1, 2018 6 minutes ago, Junxs said: Err, yes we do. Its not speculation at all. You get 3 years of parachute payments and the 3rd year is minimal compared to the previous 2. Bruce and Wyness have been banging on about it all season. It's speculation as it hasn't happened yet. You are predicting the future, unless you have magical powers that is therefore speculation. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omariqy Posted May 1, 2018 Share Posted May 1, 2018 10 hours ago, terrytini said: Well I don’t like to be rude ( but you started it !) that’s rubbish. If people were sacked every time they failed/ underperformed/missed targets there’d be hardly anyone in work. Thats the point isn’t it. You say success= promotion. Nothing else, no excuses. Anything else is Failure, and Failure = Sack. Rubbish is a very polite way of describing that thinking....but I’m never going to convince you. And “ he’s one of the best Managers until he proves otherwise “ ? Have you read that back to yourself ?? What on earth is that. Lol ? You mean in your view he is one of the best Managers in the League, but if Fulham or Cardiff end up with even 1 more Point than us, he isn’t ? Honestly the debate is surreal sometimes. Sorry I wasn't trying to be rude. I was just saying I didn't like your argument. It's not black and white as no promotion=sack. It is factors such as the manager being who he is, investment in coaching staff and players, certain decisions over the season, the numerous bad run of games we tend to have, the tactical issues he has and ultimately falling well short of our own target of 2 points a game and 80 goals (or whatever it was). If Guardiola finished 4th and won nothing then his job would be in jeopardy. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junxs Posted May 1, 2018 Share Posted May 1, 2018 15 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said: It's speculation as it hasn't happened yet. You are predicting the future, unless you have magical powers that is therefore speculation. What hasnt happened yet? Whos predicting the future? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omariqy Posted May 1, 2018 Share Posted May 1, 2018 36 minutes ago, Stevo985 said: Well that's the question isn't it. Personally if we could keep this, or most of this, squad together then I think he would get us promoted next season. I think the first month or two of the season really killed us, plus having Jack and Kodjia missing for half and most of the season respectively also was a big hit. I think if we had this squad next season then we'd be more likely to hit the ground running at the start of the season and we'd have those big players for the season (hopefully!). In that scenario I'd be more than happy to stay with Bruce. However, the reason I would be reluctant is given the financial implications, I don't think we will be able to keep the squad together next season. It will likely be weakened unless they do some very clever dealings in the summer and so it would probably be better to give someone else a crack at it. So ultimately I personally probably WOULD sack him. But I can see scenarios where people wouldn't and that would be perfectly valid. So my point really was that failure this season shouldn't necessarily mean the sack. Again I agree with that and those factors around rebuilding the squad, using the youth players and having to play slightly differently would be why I would look elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted May 1, 2018 Share Posted May 1, 2018 1 minute ago, Junxs said: What hasnt happened yet? Whos predicting the future? "Especially when the squad wont be half as good and the budget considerably less than last season" Or did you forget you wrote that? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omariqy Posted May 1, 2018 Share Posted May 1, 2018 19 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said: It's speculation as it hasn't happened yet. You are predicting the future, unless you have magical powers that is therefore speculation. True but we will never know what the board have in place in case we fail this season. So we can only speculate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junxs Posted May 1, 2018 Share Posted May 1, 2018 1 minute ago, bannedfromHandV said: "Especially when the squad wont be half as good and the budget considerably less than last season" Or did you forget you wrote that? In response to "if we dont go up" or did you forget to read that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villaglint Posted May 1, 2018 Share Posted May 1, 2018 (edited) 50 minutes ago, Stevo985 said: Well that's the question isn't it. Personally if we could keep this, or most of this, squad together then I think he would get us promoted next season. I think the first month or two of the season really killed us, plus having Jack and Kodjia missing for half and most of the season respectively also was a big hit. I think if we had this squad next season then we'd be more likely to hit the ground running at the start of the season and we'd have those big players for the season (hopefully!). In that scenario I'd be more than happy to stay with Bruce. However, the reason I would be reluctant is given the financial implications, I don't think we will be able to keep the squad together next season. It will likely be weakened unless they do some very clever dealings in the summer and so it would probably be better to give someone else a crack at it. So ultimately I personally probably WOULD sack him. But I can see scenarios where people wouldn't and that would be perfectly valid. So my point really was that failure this season shouldn't necessarily mean the sack. I'd agree with the first part but not the second part. Id keep him even if we lose in the playoffs for the following reasons. 1 - stability. I think unless the case for making a change in undeniable then you value stability over the "chance" of hiring the next wonder manager. The odds a lot higher that change/disruption will bring another (maybe endless) transition seasons than a serious run at promotion. 2 - track record. He's got the best record of promotion of anyone going and he's got us in the playoffs in his first full year. Yes that maybe a slight underachievement but for he gets how this league works and can grind out results even in tough times in the season. 3 - working with a budget. He's seems to be able to pick up cheap buys who can have a first team impact or loans that you'd never expect to come from the Prem. He's well liked by managers around the country and seems to get regular favours from them. If we've got no cash next year then this becomes even more valuable and another reason to keep him. 4 - the players support him. This could go into the first reason I suppose but he is clearly able to motivate the players. He has got a group together who for the first time in years care about the badge on their chest so why we would want to mess with that I don't know. The odds of picking up the next David Wagner are slim, if you can success is best achieved with a team that knows each other inside out and gives everything for the club and the manager. I'd be much happier staying the course than spinning the wheel again which always seems to turn out pants for us! Edited May 1, 2018 by villaglint 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrytini Posted May 1, 2018 Share Posted May 1, 2018 47 minutes ago, Junxs said: Err, yes we do. Its not speculation at all. You get 3 years of parachute payments and the 3rd year is minimal compared to the previous 2. Bruce and Wyness have been banging on about it all season. You don’t know the squad will be half as good. You really really don’t. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted May 1, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted May 1, 2018 15 minutes ago, villaglint said: I'd agree with the first part but not the second part. Id keep him even if we lose in the playoffs for the following reasons. 1 - stability. I think unless the case for making a change in undeniable then you value stability over the "chance" of hiring the next wonder manager. The odds a lot higher that change/disruption will bring another (maybe endless) transition seasons than a serious run at promotion. 2 - track record. He's got the best record of promotion of anyone going and he's got us in the playoffs in his first full year. Yes that maybe a slight underachievement but for he gets how this league works and can grind out results even in tough times in the season. 3 - working with a budget. He's seems to be able to pick up cheap buys who can have a first team impact or loans that you'd never expect to come from the Prem. He's well liked by managers around the country and seems to get regular favours from them. If we've got no cash next year then this becomes even more valuable and another reason to keep him. 4 - the players support him. This could go into the first reason I suppose but he is clearly able to motivate the players. He has got a group together who for the first time in years care about the badge on their chest so why we would want to mess with that I don't know. The odds of picking up the next David Wagner are slim, if you can success is best achieved with a team that knows each other inside out and gives everything for the club and the manager. I'd be much happier staying the course than spinning the wheel again which always seems to turn out pants for us! Good post. Like I said I can see why people would keep him even if the squad is weakened. It's perfectly valid. And whilst I do think I'd be up for giving someone else to go, it would be dependent on there being a suitable replacement. I wouldn't be sacking him off for the sake of it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrytini Posted May 1, 2018 Share Posted May 1, 2018 37 minutes ago, omariqy said: Sorry I wasn't trying to be rude. I was just saying I didn't like your argument. It's not black and white as no promotion=sack. It is factors such as the manager being who he is, investment in coaching staff and players, certain decisions over the season, the numerous bad run of games we tend to have, the tactical issues he has and ultimately falling well short of our own target of 2 points a game and 80 goals (or whatever it was). If Guardiola finished 4th and won nothing then his job would be in jeopardy. Apology accepted - just say you don’t like the argument and why, rather than saying “ that’s rubbish” ....it is so much more civil yes ? As for my argument, it is precisely yours...I agree entirely with what you’ve said in this Post as regards the criteria for keeping or sacking a Manager. I read your earlier post as saying if we don’t get promoted it = failure which = the sack......apologies if that’s not what you meant ( quite a few saying it so I maybe conpmbined posts in my head). It is a whole host of factors as you rightly say. As it happens I think he’s done enough to satisfy those tests, you don’t, the Owner may, or may not. I’ve no issue with that. My issue is with those who - either because it fits an agenda to get rid of Bruce, or, in my view, because of a limited perspective on what a Manager can And shoukd be assessed on - say “ no promotion = failure, failure = sack..full stop. Having said that I’m going to stop debating the point as if someone is as dogmatic as that, where’s the point in chatting ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrytini Posted May 1, 2018 Share Posted May 1, 2018 33 minutes ago, Junxs said: What hasnt happened yet? Everything, except everything that’s already happened Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted May 1, 2018 Share Posted May 1, 2018 48 minutes ago, villaglint said: I'd agree with the first part but not the second part. Id keep him even if we lose in the playoffs for the following reasons. 1 - stability. I think unless the case for making a change in undeniable then you value stability over the "chance" of hiring the next wonder manager. The odds a lot higher that change/disruption will bring another (maybe endless) transition seasons than a serious run at promotion. 2 - track record. He's got the best record of promotion of anyone going and he's got us in the playoffs in his first full year. Yes that maybe a slight underachievement but for he gets how this league works and can grind out results even in tough times in the season. 3 - working with a budget. He's seems to be able to pick up cheap buys who can have a first team impact or loans that you'd never expect to come from the Prem. He's well liked by managers around the country and seems to get regular favours from them. If we've got no cash next year then this becomes even more valuable and another reason to keep him. 4 - the players support him. This could go into the first reason I suppose but he is clearly able to motivate the players. He has got a group together who for the first time in years care about the badge on their chest so why we would want to mess with that I don't know. The odds of picking up the next David Wagner are slim, if you can success is best achieved with a team that knows each other inside out and gives everything for the club and the manager. I'd be much happier staying the course than spinning the wheel again which always seems to turn out pants for us! Some good points there. For me it's too many games where we have looked very poor. Second to the ball. Lacking urgency. Lacking ideas. Now I appreciate every team will have bad performances but it just feels like it was far too frequent. Just when it felt like we had a turned a corner we'd see a run of games where the team was unrecognisable and void of ideas. My fear is this could happen again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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