Steve Bruce

[dounavilla]

Has anyone considerd we could get worse under a new manager. Especially if there are going to be many changes and/or a change in our playing style.

Although id love us to be playing better football, it can be argued that it has been effective this term.

Getting rid of Bruce might be a case of the grass not being greener.

Id say we should stick with even if we fail to go up.

[Vive_La_Villa]

1 minute ago, dounavilla said:

Has anyone considerd we could get worse under a new manager. Especially if there are going to be many changes and/or a change in our playing style.

Although id love us to be playing better football, it can be argued that it has been effective this term.

Getting rid of Bruce might be a case of the grass not being greener.

Id say we should stick with even if we fail to go up.

That's when it has to be weighed up if it's worth taking the risk. 

I would prefer a change. But I wouldn't mind if he was given another year either. 

[Stevo985]

10 minutes ago, dounavilla said:

Has anyone considerd we could get worse under a new manager. Especially if there are going to be many changes and/or a change in our playing style.

Although id love us to be playing better football, it can be argued that it has been effective this term.

Getting rid of Bruce might be a case of the grass not being greener.

Id say we should stick with even if we fail to go up.

Exactly why a decision to sack Bruce shouldn't just be "We haven't been promoted, get rid"

It should be based on all sorts of factors, and if there is no better candidate to take over then that would obviously be a huge reason why he should be kept.

[carewjust4u]

22 hours ago, TRO said:

but the game is not played on Paper......else Leicester would never have won the League Title......and Aston Villa would never have won the European cup.

Its an individual fans view of the value of players and they can be right and they can be wrong......under performance is an opinion, no matter if 50,000 think it.

I think we have made some very poor individual errors this season on occasions that have cost us points and I think the team has reached depths of poor performance on some occasions some of our competitors have not gone quite so low IMO, But that comes back to consistency.....But we have hit the heights too.

I think we have some very good players in certain positions.....But there are players like Tom Cairney or Ryan Sessgnon would get in to our side, so would Ruben Neves, not to mention James Maddison.......so don't get too carried away with "On Paper"

Of course the game isn't played on paper, but there certainly has to be a benchmark of expectation from somewhere...how else can you set expectations? You mention Leicester, I think the entire world would agree that they over-performed with that squad. If you can over-achieve on paper then you can under-achieve.

There have been individual errors this season, as all teams/squads experience..but is that the reason we have lost so many points, especially against sides lower down the division? You mention consistency, but surely that is a process that must be managed, I refuse to believe that consistency is achieved on the luck of individual errors. 

You mention some of the best players in the division would get into our side, and of course they would. But we are talking about a squad of 24 players no? I would say that as a squad of quality and depth on paper is in the top 2 of the division, and therefore has performed under it's capabilities this season. 

Now there is a debate to be had in-terms of if changing manager would achieve the consistency performance-wise we need, but it is indisputable imo that we have underachieved..and I am sure Xia most likely agrees on this to some extent.

 

[bannedfromHandV]

2 hours ago, Junxs said:

In response to "if we dont go up" or did you forget to read that?

I'm not sure we're on the same page in terms of what speculation means.

When you ask a question or put forward a notion, based on what may happen in the future, irrespective of how well educated you may feel you are on the subject, that is speculation.

You are speculating, unless, back to my original response, you have mystical powers to be able to see into the future, in which case please let me know the winning lottery numbers for this week.

Edited May 1, 2018 by bannedfromHandV

[blandy]

1 hour ago, bannedfromHandV said:

When you ask a question or put forward a notion, based on what may happen in the future, irrespective of how well educated you may feel you are on the subject, that is speculation.

Not so. Speculation, by definition, is supposition or theorising without evidence. Where there is information and evidence, or someone is informed or educated on the subject, then it's not speculation.

[terrytini]

9 minutes ago, blandy said:

Not so. Speculation, by definition, is supposition or theorising without evidence. Where there is information and evidence, or someone is informed or educated on the subject, then it's not speculation.

Not so. Speculation is theorising without sufficient evidence to be sure. Where there is information and evidence, or someone is informed or educated on the subject, then it’s still speculation unless they know it as indisputable fact.

Thats my understanding, the dictionary definitions I’ve read, and how it is interpreted by the Courts.

I have all sorts of evidence about all sorts of things, I’m even “ sure” in my own mind, but unless I KNOW, it’s speculation.

[terrytini]

It’s why, for example, when an expert Witness gives evidence about something in Court, his or her credentials are subject to scrutiny and cross examination, since,however expert, informed, and professional they may be, their expert evidence is still speculation.

[terrytini]

Oh, and a couple of statements by the Club are nowhere near any sort of evidence at all anyway - so the OP was most certainly speculating.

[terrytini]

1 hour ago, carewjust4u said:

Of course the game isn't played on paper, but there certainly has to be a benchmark of expectation from somewhere...how else can you set expectations? You mention Leicester, I think the entire world would agree that they over-performed with that squad. If you can over-achieve on paper then you can under-achieve.

 

Now there is a debate to be had in-terms of if changing manager would achieve the consistency performance-wise we need, but it is indisputable imo that we have underachieved..and I am sure Xia most likely agrees on this to some extent.

 

Good to read a thoughtful balanced Post on the subject !

I agree with you.

I too think we’ve under achieved, and I do think it’s possible to make that assessment. And I suspect Tony would indeed agree. Maybe even Bruce would.

I think our results since Game 8 have equalled what I’d expect, but they needed to be even better as the first 7 games were well under Par.

And I think that we’ve under achieved even if we go up through the Play Offs. I think we “ should” ( if there can ever be such a thing ) have come Second.......although in addition to any underachievement on our part we have to factor in over achievement by other Clubs too.

As you say, the debate to be had is whether the degree to which we’ve under achieved, and the overall Pros and Cons of changing the Manager, shoukd lead to a change.

I personally see no argument at all - and I’ve seen the arguments - that even comes remotely close to me thinking he should go.

[blandy]

13 minutes ago, terrytini said:

... it’s still speculation unless they know it as indisputable fact

That's definitely not right. 

[terrytini]

4 minutes ago, blandy said:

That's definitely not right. 

Are you sure ?

[bannedfromHandV]

1 hour ago, blandy said:

Not so. Speculation, by definition, is supposition or theorising without evidence. Where there is information and evidence, or someone is informed or educated on the subject, then it's not speculation.

I respectfully disagree, in this instance particularly.

 

Unless you believe Junxs has information no-one else seems to have?

[TRO]

On 30/04/2018 at 14:55, villaglint said:

Very much this. We've slightly underperformed and for the most part I'm willing to put that down to the vagueries and unpredictability of sport. 

At this stage im very much pro Bruce and I hope he stays even if we don't go up. This year has been the most fun I've had in years watching the Villa. His buys have other than Hogan all done well and even he's chipped in with some important goals. We've played great at times, played pretty turgid stuff and won and played poorly and lost but it's a long old season and I think most teams would say the same. 

I should add that I was definitely wavering after our awful start but I'm glad Tony was more patient than me. Players want to play for him, the likes of Snodgrass and Terry are 100% here because of Bruce. The team plays like it give a shizzle. He's given me my Villa back and for that I love him a bit. 

#Brucein

 

on the money.

[TRO]

4 hours ago, carewjust4u said:

Of course the game isn't played on paper, but there certainly has to be a benchmark of expectation from somewhere...how else can you set expectations? You mention Leicester, I think the entire world would agree that they over-performed with that squad. If you can over-achieve on paper then you can under-achieve.

There have been individual errors this season, as all teams/squads experience..but is that the reason we have lost so many points, especially against sides lower down the division? You mention consistency, but surely that is a process that must be managed, I refuse to believe that consistency is achieved on the luck of individual errors. 

You mention some of the best players in the division would get into our side, and of course they would. But we are talking about a squad of 24 players no? I would say that as a squad of quality and depth on paper is in the top 2 of the division, and therefore has performed under it's capabilities this season. 

Now there is a debate to be had in-terms of if changing manager would achieve the consistency performance-wise we need, but it is indisputable imo that we have underachieved..and I am sure Xia most likely agrees on this to some extent.

 

I am not sure what the point really is of whether we have overachieved or underacheived....I still this its an opinion by anyone who declares it.

We have a strong squad, but the second eleven are not as strong as the first and you can only play eleven players at any one time as you know......we have lost some key players this season for long periods, that has to be factored in to expectation.

One of the reasons we won the league in 80/81 was the 14 players factor.

There are a fair few teams whose players would secure a place in our first eleven, so I think we have done ok......But, yes disappointed we never did it automatically, but not THAT surprised.

I thought we would finish fourth and said so on here months ago.

Xia probably does agree....but I doubt he will throw the baby out with the bath water.......It will not have gone unnoticed the whole improvement in the footballing side of the club.

sometimes in life you don't always get what you was expecting.....its easier for me, because I wasn't expecting Auto Promotion.

 

[TRO]

19 hours ago, flashingqwerty said:

Bruce has shown here and throughout his career that building sides around young players isnt what he is good at.

For Aston Villa to survive should we fail to gain promotion through the play offs lwe will need to build around our youth.

why on earth would we keep a man we know cant do the job that needs doing on the basis that he did alright with the most resources in the division?

You keep saying that....its subjective.

I just happen to think other teams have as good or better.

Wolves have a very good squad as do Fulham, Cardiff have players I would take.

We have a very decent team, but we have proved we can faulter too.....as an example Alberts performances have disappeared, its football.

Edited May 1, 2018 by TRO

[TRO]

20 hours ago, sheepyvillian said:

That's confidence for you. Good to see you have so much faith in the manager you so admire.

 

 

I don't admire him quite as much a you think depending on the context.....I just happen to think its just, to defend him against what I consider to be ungrateful souls who just want the holy grail without and consideration for the good work along the path we have trodden.

When we won the league in 80/81....We could have missed out oh so easily.....If Ipswich had of beaten Middlesborough and with us losing at Highbury.....what a difference that would have meant...would Sir Ron, be any old Ron, because we missed out or would his work have still been appreciated?

you cannot go through life accepting all the luck with an air of arrogance and then throw teddies out when it goes against.

We have improved very much this season, not as much as Wolves have perhaps, but so what, it can't always be controlled to the extent we would all like.....I am very pleased with what they have showed me this season, despite the setbacks, because I remember not so long ago the morbid saturdays, when a win was a street party, A goal for, sent us in to raptures, a goal against, just after was, well,... expected.....We was busted.

Despite missing the Auto's.....I think our club is on the way back.

They will sort out next season, despite the uncertainty.

 

Edited May 1, 2018 by TRO

[TRO]

6 hours ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

That's when it has to be weighed up if it's worth taking the risk. 

I would prefer a change. But I wouldn't mind if he was given another year either. 

I think you will see a change, even if he stays.

[srsmithusa]

3 hours ago, terrytini said:

Good to read a thoughtful balanced Post on the subject !

I agree with you.

I too think we’ve under achieved, and I do think it’s possible to make that assessment. And I suspect Tony would indeed agree. Maybe even Bruce would.

I think our results since Game 8 have equalled what I’d expect, but they needed to be even better as the first 7 games were well under Par.

And I think that we’ve under achieved even if we go up through the Play Offs. I think we “ should” ( if there can ever be such a thing ) have come Second.......although in addition to any underachievement on our part we have to factor in over achievement by other Clubs too.

As you say, the debate to be had is whether the degree to which we’ve under achieved, and the overall Pros and Cons of changing the Manager, shoukd lead to a change.

I personally see no argument at all - and I’ve seen the arguments - that even comes remotely close to me thinking he should go.

I agree with everything but the last sentence.  

[TRO]

23 hours ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

It's really not just the standard of football that has been the problem. It's the 21 games we have failed to win with the majority of them being with poor standard of football. 

Thats the problem. 

Edit: I can think of 3 games where we played well out of those 21 games. 

We had 16 non wins during arguably the finest season in our history.....certainly since the war.

come on VLV you can do better than that.