Steve Bruce

[TRO]

17 minutes ago, Eastie said:

Similar to Eddie Howe at Bournemouth - if you are happy with life sometimes it’s best to stay put .

if we are in this league next season it will be a tough job for whoever gets it ,with finances reigned in .

Another question is can we afford to sack Bruce and pay off his staff too?

I think there is a number of questions.

• have we improved from last season......The answer is yes 4th from 13th
• have we under achieved with the players we have....possibly/ debatable,/ certainly judging by the last 3 games.
• Are we sure a change of manager will bring the success we crave......debatable.
• as you say, can we afford another clearout, financially.....possibly not.
• Is the gamble of a new manager worth the risk of disrupting overall progress, with no guarantee's further improvement....possibly not.

On balance his job could be safe, baring a capitulation.

[TRO]

20 minutes ago, Eastie said:

As it stands Millwall are 6th so he could take them up - strange game football 

What amazes me is the sheer fight in his team......in those terms it just puts us in the shade.

[Mark Albrighton]

33 minutes ago, TRO said:

I lean more pro than anti.....but i am not saying he is blameless, i accept managers know they are in the results business.....and thats what it boils down to.

The hierarchy will see things much clearer at close quarters.

I just happen to think, depending on the success in the transfer mark and lady luck can play its part....it can take longer than expected.

I am not sure the carousel method works in the main......i am more inclined to go with stability.

 

Yes, I did have my suspicions...

[Eastie]

15 minutes ago, TRO said:

I think there is a number of questions.

• have we improved from last season......The answer is yes 4th from 13th
• have we under achieved with the players we have....possibly/ debatable,/ certainly judging by the last 3 games.
• Are we sure a change of manager will bring the success we crave......debatable.
• as you say, can we afford another clearout, financially.....possibly not.
• Is the gamble of a new manager worth the risk of disrupting overall progress, with no guarantee's further improvement....possibly not.

On balance his job could be safe, baring a capitulation.

Bruce was recruited to win promotion and on his unveiling he made clear he believed he could do so by this season - he wasn’t brought in to improve from last season - anything other than promotion has to be deemed as failure .

We knew this was out last chance to really have a go at it before the major ffp problems hit us .

if we don’t go up I think it’s a long term rebuild job ahead and not with Steve Bruce - I’d expect the young lads to play a big part next season and patience will be needed .

If we are in this league then our squad will be much weaker next season .

Edited April 2, 2018 by Eastie

[TRO]

30 minutes ago, dn1982 said:

I think Bruce has been kept in his job at times by Wyness and Round fighting his corner and us still having a chance of going up but his reign is uninspiring. He’s a manager that’s had success a certain way and is still using it. Hence the dinosaur comments. He seems to rely on having the better players and not the better team. When it clicks like Wolves we look great but more often than not we look disjointed. I can’t see the Dr thinking this is good enough regardless of if we’ve scrape up through the playoffs. If we are to move forward as a club next season I can’t see Bruce being here no matter what division. 

Look, all managers have their way......they all have their own preferred style usually dictated by the players they have.

experienced managers will tell you.....you can only set up with what you have got....you can't ask players to do what they are not capable of.

We have all got our thoughts on why we are not consistent.....because thats what we are inconsistent.

I think the Dinosaur comment could be aimed at so many managers.....its just a cheap shot at a style that suits managers who do not have the best players.

ps Ron saunders was always derided for his 110% workrate mantra.....it was rubbish, then and is rubbish now.

Edited April 2, 2018 by TRO

[villa89]

15 minutes ago, TRO said:

Have we under achieved with the players we have....possibly/ debatable,/ certainly judging by the last 3 games.

It's not debatable at all in my eyes. Anything less than automatic promotion, which we won't get now, is a massive underachievement with the highest wage bill in the league and the players he has at his disposal. Our squad is miles better than the Cardiff squad. 

 

[Dave J]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

I agree with much of that, but I have one point to question.

If the manager is the source of the problem and i am not saying he isn't, just that I am not convinced he is, in a direct sense......Then a change of manager, shouldn't need any money because the implication is the players are good enough.

These players are good enough as they have proved on occasion this season - consistency is the issue and it's SB's role to maintain this imo 

[commander]

If we don't go up this season automatically - this season is a failure. We have by far the most expensive wages in the league have easily the best squad and probably have the best 11. This is down to the manager. We don't have a clear identity. 

If we go up this season which looks unlikely - it will just paper over the cracks. Bruce needs to go and we need to think long term and get a clear identity and ethos at this club. 

Last season we spend more money than the majority of premier league clubs let alone the rest of Europe. Non promotion is failure - compare our squad and Cardiff's they are a world apart. I wouldn't be surprised if our wage bill was 4 or 5 times theirs. Their manger has performed wonders and far outstripped expectation and ours has under-performed compared to the resources each have. 

[TRO]

1 hour ago, villa89 said:

It's not debatable at all in my eyes. Anything less than automatic promotion, which we won't get now, is a massive underachievement with the highest wage bill in the league and the players he has at his disposal. Our squad is miles better than the Cardiff squad. 

 

Well if it was better than the Cardiff squad......we would be where they are.

Don't say the manager is better....it was equivalent to live at the apollo, when his name was mentioned by many villa fans ,when RDM went.

[Eastie]

7 minutes ago, TRO said:

Well if it was better than the Cardiff squad......we would be where they are.

Don't say the manager is better....it was equivalent to live at the apollo, when his name was mentioned by many villa fans ,when RDM went.

If Neil warnock had this squad and Bruce had Cardiff’s squad do you think this Cardiff would be within 20 points of us ?

The squad Bruce has got is surely something most managers  at this level can only dream of - the fact warnock and the players at his disposal are well clear of us suggests it is indeed the difference in manager .

Warnock motivates and gets the best out of his players - Bruce cannot get the best out of a team far more expensive and experienced and laden with internationals .

 

Edited April 2, 2018 by Eastie

[TRO]

16 minutes ago, commander said:

If we don't go up this season automatically - this season is a failure. We have by far the most expensive wages in the league have easily the best squad and probably have the best 11. This is down to the manager. We don't have a clear identity. 

If we go up this season which looks unlikely - it will just paper over the cracks. Bruce needs to go and we need to think long term and get a clear identity and ethos at this club. 

Last season we spend more money than the majority of premier league clubs let alone the rest of Europe. Non promotion is failure - compare our squad and Cardiff's they are a world apart. I wouldn't be surprised if our wage bill was 4 or 5 times theirs. Their manger has performed wonders and far outstripped expectation and ours has under-performed compared to the resources each have. 

But nobody wanted Warnock....we change like the weather.

somebody wins a few games and they are the next coming.

Neil Warnock always was a decent manager,who improved with time.... its just the reputation he got was iffy.

[Eastie]

11 minutes ago, TRO said:

But nobody wanted Warnock....we change like the weather.

somebody wins a few games and they are the next coming.

Neil Warnock always was a decent manager,who improved with time.... its just the reputation he got was iffy.

Warnock is a man motivator similar to o neill was - he knows how to win but often in an ugly style - would he have fit the bill for Villa a year ago - I doubt it and there would have been uproar from many .

The fact warnock has achieved what he has at Cardiff shows just how poorly Bruce has done in exactly the same timespan with a far better squad of players than Cardiff had at their disposal .

i wouldn’t agree that warnock was always a decent manager - he and Bruce have had success in this league - both have been in management 20 plus years and neither has remotely achieved any success at the top level.

There is a reason they have spent much of their management in this league .

However credit due to warnock for hugely over achieving this season while Bruce has under achieved with this squad .

Edited April 2, 2018 by Eastie

[TRO]

3 minutes ago, Eastie said:

If Neil warnock had this squad and Bruce had Cardiff’s squad do you this Cardiff would be within 20 points of us ?

The squad Bruce has gor]t is surely something most mangers at this level can only dream of - the fact warnock and the players at his disposal are well clear of us suggests it is indeed the difference in manager .

Well, its an interesting one Eastie....I think both managers are competent.

I think on the whole Neils squad is better suited to this league.....Generally,we may have better players, but they apply themselves better....we can't just have better players on paper and say we have the better squad.....football is played on grass, not paper.

it includes desire, will, determination and combative spirit as well as the silky skills, not sure all those thongs are considered when we make our assumptions of better players.

right now, i would swap the attitude of the Millwall players, never mind the top 6

I wouldn't like to speculate, but to offer it as a forgone conclusion, i think is fanciful.

We have both read his books, he has cut his teeth the hard way, he expects a shift from his players.....I would imagine him to be a very good motivator....but if you read carefully, he has admitted some players, he could do nothing with......it is not an exact science.

[markavfc40]

2 hours ago, TRO said:

Look, all managers have their way......they all have their own preferred style usually dictated by the players they have.

experienced managers will tell you.....you can only set up with what you have got....you can't ask players to do what they are not capable of.

 

Whilst Bruce has a negative net spend he has been given plenty of leverage to wheel and deal and has the biggest wage budget to work with. The squad he has is the one he has chosen so in that regard what he has to work with is down to him. For what it is worth I think he has put one of the two best squads in this division together.

On the one hand I therefore think Bruce deserves praise for the squad he has put together but on the other he is failing, not by much but still failing, to consistently get the best out of them. I might be wrong here but I get the impression you don't think the squad is all that which to me would mean Bruce has failed as he has had the time and resources to ensure it is one of the three best squads in this league.

The bottom line to all this for me is simple and that is for Bruce to achieve what was expected this season he has to get us promoted and it won't matter to me, other than more stress and a costly trip to Wembley, if that is by us finishing sixth and winning the play offs or finishing second.

If we don't achieve promotion then he has failed. Whether that means he should be sacked I am not quite sure and will contemplate that if it happened because with so much to play for this season I am struggling to look that far ahead.

Edited April 2, 2018 by markavfc40

[Eastie]

10 minutes ago, TRO said:

Well, its an interesting one Eastie....I think both managers are competent.

I think on the whole Neils squad is better suited to this league.....Generally,we may have better players, but they apply themselves better....we can't just have better players on paper and say we have the better squad.....football is played on grass, not paper.

it includes desire, will, determination and combative spirit as well as the silky skills, not sure all those thongs are considered when we make our assumptions of better players.

right now, i would swap the attitude of the Millwall players, never mind the top 6

I wouldn't like to speculate, but to offer it as a forgone conclusion, i think is fanciful.

We have both read his books, he has cut his teeth the hard way, he expects a shift from his players.....I would imagine him to be a very good motivator....but if you read carefully, he has admitted some players, he could do nothing with......it is not an exact science.

We with never agree on the main point Tro - which to me is Warnock gets the best out of what he’s got to work with and Steve Bruce doesn’t .

ive heard Bruce  many times talk about handling the expectation of this club - maybe it is he himself who cannot handle it - wyness claimed Bruce hardly sleeps for fear of losing - that is hardly a convincing mindset to motivate from .

i do admire your support of Bruce and I certainly at times have backed him myself but these lapses in form happen far too often to be excused .

Edited April 2, 2018 by Eastie

[TRO]

11 minutes ago, Eastie said:

Warnock is a man motivator similar to o neill was - he knows how to win but often in an ugly style - would he have fit the bill for Villa a year ago - I doubt it and there would have been uproar from many .

The fact warnock has achieved what he has at Cardiff shows just how poorly Bruce has done in exactly the same timespan with a far better squad of players than Cardiff had at their disposal .

i wouldn’t agree that warnock was always a decent manager - he and Bruce have had success in this league - both have been in management 20 plus years and neither has remotely achieved any success at the top level.

There is a reason they have spent much of their management in this league .

However credit due to warnock for hugely over achieving this season while Bruce has under achieved with this squad .

Are Cardiff ugly?....not so sure....its subjective that.

He is more than a man motivator.....but for sure not world class.....but you're being a tad disingenuous imo......you know yourself he has had his fair share of injustice.

back on topic

I cannot emphasise enough, I refuse to throw the kitchen sink at Bruce, despite the frustrations we are all enduring......an emphatic win on Tuesday and the comments get diluted.

 

[Eastie]

8 minutes ago, TRO said:

Are Cardiff ugly?....not so sure....its subjective that.

He is more than a man motivator.....but for sure not world class.....but you're being a tad disingenuous imo......you know yourself he has had his fair share of injustice.

back on topic

I cannot emphasise enough, I refuse to throw the kitchen sink at Bruce, despite the frustrations we are all enduring......an emphatic win on Tuesday and the comments get diluted.

 

An emphatic win on Tuesday would just show what might have been for me - I know these players can do it - I’ve seen how good they can be - I think Bruce has got selections wrong recently and hope he can get things back on track .

However it is down to him to get the best from this team - he’s the manager and is well paid to get his team to perform - coaching, team selection, tactics, all come down to him in the end .

You are a  good man Tro and a credit to this forum - it’s good to debate these things with you as you are respectful and a gentleman .

Edited April 2, 2018 by Eastie

[TRO]

50 minutes ago, markavfc40 said:

 

Whilst Bruce has a negative net spend he has been given plenty of leverage to wheel and deal and has the biggest wage budget to work with. The squad he has is the one he has chosen so in that regard what he has to work with is down to him. For what it is worth I think he has put one of the two best squads in this division together.

On the one hand I therefore think Bruce deserves praise for the squad he has put together but on the other he is failing, not by much but still failing, to consistently get the best out of them. I might be wrong here but I get the impression you don't think the squad is all that which to me would mean Bruce has failed as he has had the time and resources to ensure it is one of the three best squads in this league.

The bottom line to all this for me is simple and that is for Bruce to achieve what was expected this season he has to get us promoted and it won't matter to me, other than more stress and a costly trip to Wembley, if that is by us finishing sixth and winning the play offs or finishing second.

If we don't achieve promotion then he has failed. Whether that means he should be sacked I am not quite sure and will contemplate that if it happened because with so much to play for this season I am struggling to look that far ahead.

This where I am at.

That is not strictly true in its full sense, but partly so.

I have been watching more of the surrounding teams lately and my conclusion in simple terms is.............Not enough fight, not enough pace in the side from too many players to launch a challenge for the Automatic places

Now the question of interpretation, assuming I am right of course......who is responsible for that The manager or the players or both?

Now I have no axe to grind and its fine by me to be wrong, I have humility, I can accept, that I have read it wrong.......but right now I am not convinced I have.

Now I know you are totally committed to the view he has bought the best players.....If I may be so bold as to say, that should include the ability to be consistent, to fight for the ball, to fight in the air and the ask questions for 90 minutes of the opposition, to run with the ball and to pass to players who are consistently moving around to find space and give the player on the ball options and not have to keep resisting challenges and in most cases losing out.

Now thats what I see of late.....I didn't see it in the Wolves game.....I saw a committed bunch.

My dilemma is why

• Is the manager for umpteen reasons...set up/ lack of motivation/ poor team selection/dressing room revolt you name it......at fault?
• Are too many players out of form at the same time?
• Have we bought just too many" Luxury " players for the want of a better word that just like their day in the sun and can only do it on fair days and Sundays?
• Do we have key players that slip in and out of form too easily?

I simply don't know the answer and until I do.....I cannot find myself condemning anyone.

What I do know is , (without knowing the reason why) What I am seeing is a low level of fight and determination from a team that should be flying.....they are a shadow of the team that played Wolves and Bristol City

Now I know my opinions are amongst the minority on this site......But when I have discussions in the pubs and put the question face to face to Villa Fans (who attend the games, and that is not an attempt to be derogatory to those that don't, I respect them implicitly) and ask should we get rid of Bruce.....I consistently get a frown and no not at all......and that is from pissed off Villa Fans who have drew a blank too, as where our form has gone.

I have no rhyme or reason to defend Steve Bruce, I don't know him, I have never met him, just trying to get to the truth of what is wrong.....before another one bites the dust.

Edited April 2, 2018 by TRO

[TRO]

48 minutes ago, Eastie said:

We with never agree on the main point Tro - which to me is Warnock gets the best out of what he’s got to work with and Steve Bruce doesn’t .

ive heard Bruce  many times talk about handling the expectation of this club - maybe it is he himself who cannot handle it - wyness claimed Bruce hardly sleeps for fear of losing - that is hardly a convincing mindset to motivate from .

i do admire your support of Bruce and I certainly at times have backed him myself but these lapses in form happen far too often to be excused .

Its not a problem to disagree......and if at some stage, I can see that I am wrong, then I will be happy to say so.

But please allow me to draw your attention to a point.....Neil Warnock made a disclosure that he had trouble sleeping after a game and that his mind was doing overtime and he had to slowly ween himself off sleeping tablets.

John Gregory was once asked what motivates you He said " fear of losing"......never heard of him being criticised or picked up for that.

so my argument to all fans mainly centres around.......Criticise Steve Bruce all you like, but lets not build a case on slightisms and pedantic things most managers do.

If I read a convincing enough argument to support Bruce out.....I will buy it.....my view is not intransigent, but so far there is too much conjecture in my view, that is not established fact.

 

Edited April 2, 2018 by TRO

[Eastie]

13 minutes ago, TRO said:

Its not a problem to disagree......and if at some stage, I can see that I am wrong, then I will be happy to say so.

But please allow me to draw your attention to a point.....Neil Warnock made a disclosure that he had trouble sleeping after a game and that his mind was doing overtime and he had to slowly ween himself off sleeping tablets.

John Gregory was once asked what motivates you He said " fear of losing"......never heard of him being criticised or picked up for that.

so my argument to all fans mainly centres around.......Criticise Steve Bruce all you like, but lets not build a case on slightisms and pedantic things most managers do.

If I read a convincing enough argument to support Bruce out.....I will buy it.....my view is not intransigent, but so far there is too much conjecture in my view, that is not established fact.

 

I do get you your points but just cannot agree on Bruce - he certainly is not all bad , however these lapses in form are too often for a team serious about automatic promotion .

in his time we have had 4 or 5 bad runs - if as you say the squad is not good enough then I ask why he spent £20m on hogan and Bree and failed to address your midfield concerns properly .

If as is my view this squad is easily good enough for promotion then why has he failed to address these lapses  in form that are too regular and why can he not get the best from these players who have proved good enough elsewhere.

Also why has he got selections wrong so many times - we know Elmo and snoddy are effective together - what was the point playing axel out of position and leaving Elmo out ?

why was barney left out to accommodate  jedi against a hull side there for the taking .

why throw a host of strikers up front with no supply to them - like school ground tactics ?

There are and will always be questions asked of Bruce unless he delivers results - he is well paid to get the best from these players - he needs to do so ASAP !

genuinely I’d love to see Bruce walking round Wembley next month taking the plaudits - it would be a great great day but I am worried it  May not end well 

Edited April 2, 2018 by Eastie