Steve Bruce

[Eastie]

6 minutes ago, TRO said:

i don't know the answer......and I am not going to try, because its just speculating.

I guess, Steve Bruce has no more idea as whats gone wrong than Gary Rowett.

but when the best manager in world football says he has no idea why Everton beat his team 4-0 last season.....we have to start thinking a bit more laterally.

to keep blaming managers after a few reversals is cheap analysis imo.

They cannot go on unabatted or unchecked .....but lets think a bit more laterally guys.

The manager always has been and always will be the one who carries the can ultimately. 

‘Even good managers like clough  , robson, mourinho have been sacked in their time - sadly that’s the way it is , I remember John Gregory saying once when confronting collymore that Stan turned round and said ‘ you’ll be gone before me ‘ .

the   Manager  rightly or wrongly will always pay the price for poor results. 

‘I agree the players are not delivering but ultimately it’s the managers job to get the best out of his players . 

Edited April 1, 2018 by Eastie

[TRO]

8 minutes ago, KSV said:

Well that was my point. I doubt Bruce changed the game plans. We put out similar sides and formations. Yet players didn't turn up. The effort fight and passion we had against wolves is gone.

.

 

Thats my take.....but he does have to find a way of getting it back.

anymore showings of a lack of fight......i would start introducing the kids.....experience or no experience.....Steve must show his steel.

no time for pussy footing around senior players.

[Eastie]

4 minutes ago, TRO said:

Thats my take.....but he does have to find a way of getting it back.

anymore showings of a lack of fight......i would start introducing the kids.....experience or no experience.....Steve must show his steel.

no time for pussy footing around senior players.

This - let’s have green and o hare in on Tuesday night and shake it up a bit - there are players who need to aware that if they don’t perform they don’t play .

There are lads chomping at  the bit for a chance - they will show hunger and desire .

Edited April 1, 2018 by Eastie

[TRO]

11 minutes ago, Eastie said:

The manager always has been and always will be the one who carries the can ultimately. 

‘Even good managers like clough  , robson, mourinho have been sacked in their time - sadly that’s the way it is , I remember John Gregory saying once when confronting collymore that Stan turned round and said ‘ you’ll be gone before me ‘ .

the   Manager  rightly or wrongly will always pay the price for poor results. 

‘I agree the players are not delivering but ultimately it’s the managers job to get the best out of his players . 

And I could not agree with you more.....you are bang on.

but I am old enough to remember Tony Barton getting the sack for finishing 10th after winning the European Cup.....it was madness.

to be honest.....everyone was itching for a big name.....hierarchy mainly, but some fans too.

He brought in most of the players Ron had......it set the club back years.

I am just saying we need to think deeply and not let our frustrations get the better of our judgment.

 

[TRO]

5 minutes ago, Eastie said:

This - let’s have green and o hare in on Tuesday night and shake it up a bit - there are players who need to aware that if they don’t perform they don’t play .

There are lads chomping at  the bit for a chance - they will show hunger and desire .

I agree, but those kids must do exactly that, chomp at the bit.

everyone will excuse a misplaced pass or an error.....what fans won't forgive is lack of passion or effort.

[Eastie]

Just now, TRO said:

And I could not agree with you more.....you are bang on.

but I am old enough to remember Tony Barton getting the sack for finishing 10th after winning the European Cup.....it was madness.

to be honest.....everyone was itching for a big name.....hierarchy mainly, but some fans too.

He brought in most of the players Ron had......it set the club back years.

I am just saying we need to think deeply and not let our frustrations get the better of our judgment.

 

I was around in those days too , even though I look younger

To be Honest I think Bruce is aware that if he doesn’t deliver promotion he will be gone - I think that was made clear to him and he accepted the challenge . 

‘He has several times said he knows the consequences for himself if we don’t go up - we can still do it at this moment though and we need to try and pull things around and give it everything in the remainder of the season .

[Eastie]

I found this a very interesting read on his time at Sunderland and many things seem similar at Villa -

Arguably one of the principal reasons Bruce is no longer in charge at the Stadium of Light concerns his apparent inability to tweak formations or tactics during matches. Whenever a rival manager re-configured his system mid-game, Bruce invariably failed to come up with a countermeasure.

In recent months Alan Pardew, Mark Hughes, Roy Hodgson and, most recently, Roberto Martínez have all seemingly out-thought him as Sunderland dropped points against supposedly weaker sidesthey really should have beaten.

If he failed to cut it as a tactician, the 50-year-old did not seem much of a strategist either. Including loans, 30 players were signed – several of whom have subsequently been moved on – during Bruce's two-and-a-half years on Wearside. That represents an unsettling "churn" factor and hardly proved conducive to developing either a clear playing philosophy or strong team spirit.

Always rather amorphous, if not downright scrappy, Sunderland's high-tempo style lacked creativity, not to mention control, in central midfield. Unable to dictate play, the team frequently failed to press home early advantages.

Unashamedly old school, Bruce believed that motivation was the key to management but the influx of overseas coaches has raised the Premier League's technical bar and despite his relative youth, he has begun to look suspiciously like a man whose era has passed.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2011/nov/30/steve-bruce-sunderland-sacked

Edited April 1, 2018 by Eastie

[TRO]

15 minutes ago, Eastie said:

I was around in those days too , even though I look younger

To be Honest I think Bruce is aware that if he doesn’t deliver promotion he will be gone - I think that was made clear to him and he accepted the challenge . 

‘He has several times said he knows the consequences for himself if we don’t go up - we can still do it at this moment though and we need to try and pull things around and give it everything in the remainder of the season .

I agree, not you looking younger

I am not sure of what SB is aware of or whatever.

I just want what is best for the club.....just saying, some decisions in the past have not been, just to try and satisfy the lust for success, which is noble, but not always wise.

[TRO]

10 minutes ago, Eastie said:

I found this a very interesting read on his time at Sunderland and many things seem similar at Villa -

Arguably one of the principal reasons Bruce is no longer in charge at the Stadium of Light concerns his apparent inability to tweak formations or tactics during matches. Whenever a rival manager re-configured his system mid-game, Bruce invariably failed to come up with a countermeasure.

In recent months Alan Pardew, Mark Hughes, Roy Hodgson and, most recently, Roberto Martínez have all seemingly out-thought him as Sunderland dropped points against supposedly weaker sidesthey really should have beaten.

If he failed to cut it as a tactician, the 50-year-old did not seem much of a strategist either. Including loans, 30 players were signed – several of whom have subsequently been moved on – during Bruce's two-and-a-half years on Wearside. That represents an unsettling "churn" factor and hardly proved conducive to developing either a clear playing philosophy or strong team spirit.

Always rather amorphous, if not downright scrappy, Sunderland's high-tempo style lacked creativity, not to mention control, in central midfield. Unable to dictate play, the team frequently failed to press home early advantages.

Unashamedly old school, Bruce believed that motivation was the key to management but the influx of overseas coaches has raised the Premier League's technical bar and despite his relative youth, he has begun to look suspiciously like a man whose era has passed.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2011/nov/30/steve-bruce-sunderland-sacked

• Pardew struggling with Albion
• Hughes struggling with Southampton after just being sacked by struggling Stoke
• Roy Hodgson trying to resusitate Palace at the wrong end of the table.
• Roberto Martinez  running to the hills of international football, where half the job is gone.

Its a story that could have been written about Warnock, Allardyce or Pulis....Lambert would be a lack of Interest as with RDM or Zola.....I think MON has had similar rubbish written and I never liked him.....but fairs fair.

its just cheap journalist poppy cock.

I am all for a sensible debate on the worth of our manager, but most of the attempts to rubbish him are shabby and lack real substance.....just like above.

[Nabby]

15 minutes ago, Eastie said:

I found this a very interesting read on his time at Sunderland and many things seem similar at Villa -

Arguably one of the principal reasons Bruce is no longer in charge at the Stadium of Light concerns his apparent inability to tweak formations or tactics during matches. Whenever a rival manager re-configured his system mid-game, Bruce invariably failed to come up with a countermeasure.

In recent months Alan Pardew, Mark Hughes, Roy Hodgson and, most recently, Roberto Martínez have all seemingly out-thought him as Sunderland dropped points against supposedly weaker sidesthey really should have beaten.

If he failed to cut it as a tactician, the 50-year-old did not seem much of a strategist either. Including loans, 30 players were signed – several of whom have subsequently been moved on – during Bruce's two-and-a-half years on Wearside. That represents an unsettling "churn" factor and hardly proved conducive to developing either a clear playing philosophy or strong team spirit.

Always rather amorphous, if not downright scrappy, Sunderland's high-tempo style lacked creativity, not to mention control, in central midfield. Unable to dictate play, the team frequently failed to press home early advantages.

Unashamedly old school, Bruce believed that motivation was the key to management but the influx of overseas coaches has raised the Premier League's technical bar and despite his relative youth, he has begun to look suspiciously like a man whose era has passed.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2011/nov/30/steve-bruce-sunderland-sacked

He hasn't changed its the same issue here.He relies on individuals to bail us out so when individuals have a bad game there is no team game plan to get us out of it .Kodjia I'm glad to see back but after so long out there is no way he should be getting anymore than 10-15 mins to start with he was clearly well off the pace and added nothing , not helped by us just lumping the ball forward .

The formation we have been using has worked to a point but for us to go up he is going to need to find something else that works and for the love of god stop with the overloading of strikers on the pitch it doesn't work !! We would be better taking off an attacker and adding a runner from midfield.Tuanzebe  in a DM role would be a start his pace and power would allow us to play 2 men in midfield with them getting forward to support the attack ..both Lansbury and Houriane can score coming from deep. Having the wingers switch sides from time to time might help too I fail to see the point of putting 2 men up top then having wingers who check back to cross.As Automatic promotion has gone we need to use the rest of the games to find some alternative tactics to what we have been using 

[Nabby]

5 minutes ago, TRO said:

• Pardew struggling with Albion
• Hughes struggling with Southampton after just being sacked by struggling Stoke
• Roy Hodgson trying to resusitate Palace at the wrong end of the table.
• Roberto Martinez  running to the hills of international football, where half the job is gone.

Its a story that could have been written about Warnock, Allardyce or Pulis....Lambert would be a lack of Interest as with RDM or Zola.....I think MON has had similar rubbish written and I never liked him.....but fairs fair.

its just cheap journalist poppy cock.

I am all for a sensible debate on the worth of our manager, but most of the attempts to rubbish him are shabby and lack real substance.....just like above.

So you dont think this currently describes us ?

''Always rather amorphous, if not downright scrappy, Sunderland's high-tempo style lacked creativity, not to mention control, in central midfield'' 

''Arguably one of the principal reasons Bruce is no longer in charge at the Stadium of Light concerns his apparent inability to tweak formations or tactics during matches. Whenever a rival manager re-configured his system mid-game, Bruce invariably failed to come up with a countermeasure.''

Those are exactly the issues we have now - we can't control games from midfield ( not helped when he takes off the midfield and plays with 4 strikers ) and he can't make changes that effect the game.The last 2 games we have played 2 struggling sides and the tactics or lack of them have been bewildering .

 

[TRO]

6 minutes ago, Nabby said:

So you dont think this currently describes us ?

''Always rather amorphous, if not downright scrappy, Sunderland's high-tempo style lacked creativity, not to mention control, in central midfield'' 

''Arguably one of the principal reasons Bruce is no longer in charge at the Stadium of Light concerns his apparent inability to tweak formations or tactics during matches. Whenever a rival manager re-configured his system mid-game, Bruce invariably failed to come up with a countermeasure.''

Those are exactly the issues we have now - we can't control games from midfield ( not helped when he takes off the midfield and plays with 4 strikers ) and he can't make changes that effect the game.The last 2 games we have played 2 struggling sides and the tactics or lack of them have been bewildering .

 

It could describe any team that doesn't have the players to do much about it.

We are fourth so what are all those below us doing.

The inconsistency has us all tongue tied.....but don't just jump to conclusions from journalists who are obligated at the time to sell papers to fans who just want to believe sack the manager and the golden fleece is yours.

watch the game and think gor yourself......there is plenty going on in a game that is beyond the manager.

A manager cannot make a silk purse out of a sows ear.......but that is no me excusing Bruce of everything, just an attempt of apportioning fair blame.

[vreitti]

1 minute ago, TRO said:

It could describe any team that doesn't have the players to do much about it.

We are fourth so what are all those below us doing.

The inconsistency has us all tongue tied.....but don't just jump to conclusions from journalists who are obligated at the time to sell papers to fans who just want to believe sack the manager and the golden fleece is yours.

watch the game and think gor yourself......there is plenty going on in a game that is beyond the manager.

A manager cannot make a silk purse out of a sows ear.......but that is no me excusing Bruce of everything, just an attempt of apportioning fair blame.

If the manager can't be held accountable for anything... as seems to be your major case... why do we need a manager at all? 

 

[TRO]

10 minutes ago, vreitti said:

If the manager can't be held accountable for anything... as seems to be your major case... why do we need a manager at all? 

 

That is not my stance at all.

That is your interpretation of my stance.

make a sensible criticism of him, that can hold substance and not wild claims of shit game shit manager, which is primarily what i am reading and I might agree.

I have said many many times on here.......whether it is right, fair or otherwise, I accept the manager has to take responsibility for it all, thats the nature of the beast. Many many things can conspire, we can only guess.....but the main man has to carry the can, like walking around with semtex jangling in your pocket from game to game.

I accepted Tony Barton's sacking......but didn't agree with it.

Ron Atkinsons sacking was inevitable I guess, but strong folk could have resisted it.....was he shit too.....played some of the best football i have witnessed as a fan.

There is plenty to think about Imo.

Edited April 1, 2018 by TRO

[vreitti]

9 minutes ago, TRO said:

make a sensible criticism of him, that can hold substance and not wild claims of shit game shit manager, which is primarily what i am reading and I might agree.

sensible criticism...

he has no tactics... he's seldom able to successfully change things when they aren't working... no plan b, not that any of us even know what plan a is... work hard? maybe you win...

the way I see it, we only win when the players (collectively) are having a 'good day'... or by a an individual moment of brilliance... seer luck... there is no discernible formula... no real identity... no villa way. 

Bruce might be nice person, perhaps even a decent motivator, but he just ain't a good football manager in the modern game, where you need more... than just guts and determination... he just doesn't possess any tactical astuteness, quite the opposite actually. Tbh the way I see it, he isn't even bothered by that, which is why we'll never get promotion with him in charge. Sadly.

[MikeAVFC]

I honestly thought he was proving me wrong on the amazing run previously, but now he's shown himself up for what he really is. A limited, crap manager who relies on individuals to bail him out. There's no game plan, no style of play, no identity to our play. Let's be honest, for all the money we've spent the last 18 months, if we take Grealish and Adomah out we've got very little creativity and nothing going forward - How can this be? It has to be the manager. We've spent the best part of what, 60 million quid since the Dr bought us? I just don't get it. We've hand picked some top championship players who'd done well at other clubs (Kodjia, Hogan, Hourihane and so on) and some good PL loanees in Snodgrass, Johnstone along with experienced heads like your Elmos, Terry's, Chesters etc. How can Bruce not get cohesive, consistent performances from a squad that's so experienced and has big quality for this league? Honestly, when we appointed Bruce I didn't particularly like it but I warmed to the idea that he'd at least get us promoted within a year even if the football was shite. Okay we can still go up through the playoffs but with the money spent, he's totally failed. We should NOT be relying on the gamble that is the playoffs given the squad we have. It's utterly shambolic. I'm finding it very hard to get behind him. How can we go from the high of beating Wolves to the utter utter turgid crap of the last 3 games? Problem is it's been a theme all season - we've played well probably about 5 or 6 times all season. The minimum I'd have expected is promotion. I could accept the turgid football if we were in the top 2, but we ain't. So **** annoyed that we're about to potentially throw away our best chance of promotion, because if we don't make it this year we're done for as far as I'm concerned. Leeds, Sheff Weds, Notts Forest - countless big clubs who've been stuck down here for years. That could easily be us soon. Sorry to sound so negative and depressing but it's how I feel. This manager is hugely underperforming and it's totally unacceptable. 

Edited April 1, 2018 by MikeAVFC

[mrjc]

4 minutes ago, vreitti said:

sensible criticism...

he has no tactics... he's seldom able to successfully change things when they aren't working... no plan b, not that any of us even know what plan a is... work hard? maybe you win...

the way I see it, we only win when the players (collectively) are having a 'good day'... or by a an individual moment of brilliance... seer luck... there is no discernible formula... no real identity... no villa way. 

Bruce might be nice person, perhaps even a decent motivator, but he just ain't a good football manager in the modern game, where you need more... than just guts and determination... he just doesn't possess any tactical astuteness, quite the opposite actually. Tbh the way I see it, he isn't even bothered by that, which is why we'll never get promotion with him in charge. Sadly.

Totally agree. We’re close to 18 months into his tenure now, and the progress just isn’t good enough. Yes, we are more difficult to beat, and at times have had more of a winning mentality. 

But like you, I don’t see enough of an identity to how we play. We still don’t seem to adapt the style to who we are playing, or be able to adapt when things are going against us. 

To me, this just isn’t good enough after this amount of time and with this amount of resources. While Bruce hasn’t invested heavily in transfer fees, he has in wages. 11 of the 18 yesterday are from his time (I think), and those that weren’t included Grealish, Adomah and Chester.  This squad should be doing far better than it is.  

There’s no point making the change now, but I still believe it would have been the right thing to do much earlier in the season. 

[AntrimBlack]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

• Pardew struggling with Albion
• Hughes struggling with Southampton after just being sacked by struggling Stoke
• Roy Hodgson trying to resusitate Palace at the wrong end of the table.
• Roberto Martinez  running to the hills of international football, where half the job is gone.

Its a story that could have been written about Warnock, Allardyce or Pulis....Lambert would be a lack of Interest as with RDM or Zola.....I think MON has had similar rubbish written and I never liked him.....but fairs fair.

its just cheap journalist poppy cock.

I am all for a sensible debate on the worth of our manager, but most of the attempts to rubbish him are shabby and lack real substance.....just like above.

I don't know how you can say this when we see exactly the same problems with him at our club.

[TRO]

14 minutes ago, vreitti said:

sensible criticism...

he has no tactics... he's seldom able to successfully change things when they aren't working... no plan b, not that any of us even know what plan a is... work hard? maybe you win...

the way I see it, we only win when the players (collectively) are having a 'good day'... or by a an individual moment of brilliance... seer luck... there is no discernible formula... no real identity... no villa way. 

Bruce might be nice person, perhaps even a decent motivator, but he just ain't a good football manager in the modern game, where you need more... than just guts and determination... he just doesn't possess any tactical astuteness, quite the opposite actually. Tbh the way I see it, he isn't even bothered by that, which is why we'll never get promotion with him in charge. Sadly.

I simply disagree with that in terms of Any consistency......many times this season he has won games through substitutions.....against wolves alone he out thought Nuno.

What teams don't rely on individual brilliance, thats just selective criticism.

what is Vardy and Mahrez other than individual brilliance.

There was a time recently when the team was winning every game, we all knew what the formation was, the plan or whatever you call it....where we worked the flanks, it was plain to most folk what was going on and who was our danger.....the subs against wolves was plain and coherent.

what had changed is too many players losing their form, for whatever reason....I wish i knew.

[TRO]

2 hours ago, MikeAVFC said:

I honestly thought he was proving me wrong on the amazing run previously, but now he's shown himself up for what he really is. A limited, crap manager who relies on individuals to bail him out. There's no game plan, no style of play, no identity to our play. Let's be honest, for all the money we've spent the last 18 months, if we take Grealish and Adomah out we've got very little creativity and nothing going forward - How can this be? It has to be the manager. We've spent the best part of what, 60 million quid since the Dr bought us? I just don't get it. We've hand picked some top championship players who'd done well at other clubs (Kodjia, Hogan, Hourihane and so on) and some good PL loanees in Snodgrass, Johnstone along with experienced heads like your Elmos, Terry's, Chesters etc. How can Bruce not get cohesive, consistent performances from a squad that's so experienced and has big quality for this league? Honestly, when we appointed Bruce I didn't particularly like it but I warmed to the idea that he'd at least get us promoted within a year even if the football was shite. Okay we can still go up through the playoffs but with the money spent, he's totally failed. We should NOT be relying on the gamble that is the playoffs given the squad we have. It's utterly shambolic. I'm finding it very hard to get behind him. How can we go from the high of beating Wolves to the utter utter turgid crap of the last 3 games? Problem is it's been a theme all season - we've played well probably about 5 or 6 times all season. The minimum I'd have expected is promotion. I could accept the turgid football if we were in the top 2, but we ain't. So **** annoyed that we're about to potentially throw away our best chance of promotion, because if we don't make it this year we're done for as far as I'm concerned. Leeds, Sheff Weds, Notts Forest - countless big clubs who've been stuck down here for years. That could easily be us soon. Sorry to sound so negative and depressing but it's how I feel. This manager is hugely underperforming and it's totally unacceptable. 

So who do you want to come in and where is the money  with FFP to get the players to turn it around......or are you expecting a new manager to just work with what he's got, because by the sound of your post, its all manager problem.

so your new guy shouldn't need to replace anyone other than the loanee's....because they are all good enough.

its not a loaded question.....just interested who this new guy is and HOW he will turn it.

look you could be right, it could be their plan in the summer.

Edited April 2, 2018 by TRO