Steve Bruce

[TRO]

19 minutes ago, Dave J said:

Could you not consider the scenario of short term pain for a longer term gain possibly?

If we could be sure of the long term gain....it would be a reasonable consideration.

Edited October 20, 2017 by TRO

[Genie]

33 minutes ago, TRO said:

If we could be sure of the long term gain....it would be a reasonable consideration.

What should the Dr do then to guarantee long  term gain?

[TRO]

4 minutes ago, Genie said:

What should the Dr do then to guarantee long  term gain?

There is no guarantee....is my point.

unless you have funds of gargantuan proportions and can attract a manager with massive pull.....and we don't.

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

If we could be sure of the long term gain....it would be a reasonable consideration.

Well nothing is ever guaranteed mate, but you certainly give yourself a better chance by having a team/management structure in place with a clear plan, adaptability, and progression etc.

Currently I feel we are punching way below our weight.

It is pointless for us to turn this into another Pro/con Bruce debate though.

For instance, when we were pushing for Champions League, and decided to sign was it Harewood or Heskey? Instead of a top striker/attacker, we lessened our chances of pushing on.

Now we could have signed Messi or Ronaldo, and although the "gain" would not have been guaranteed, it would have been a damn sight better of a chance. lol

Edited October 20, 2017 by JAMAICAN-VILLAN

[TRO]

15 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

Well nothing is ever guaranteed mate, but you certainly give yourself a better chance by having a team/management structure in place with a clear plan, adaptability, and progression.

Currently I feel we are punching way below our weight.

It is pointless for us to turn this into another Pro/con Bruce debate though.

For instance, when we were pushing for Champions League, and decided to sign was it Harewood or Heskey? Instead of a top strike/attacker, we lessened our chances of pushing on.

Now we could have signed Messi or Ronaldo, and although the "gain" would not have been guaranteed, it would have been a damn sight better of a chance. lol

I think you have made a very significant point with Heskey and Harewood.....some of the decisions that gradually unhinged us......slowly, but surely.....cahill for Davies and so on.

Back to today

I agree, but who is likely to bring in the structure you mention.

who actually does declare all that on a blueprint and declares it to the world.

IF there was a definite answer whether to stick or twist, i think they would make it.

[Villan_of_oz]

6 hours ago, terrytini said:

 

Haven’t seen it but will this do ?

Players X and Y are back in training but it might be a bit early for X.

Players A And B are still some way off.

Player Z has a knock but should be ok.

Fulham are a good side, they playa certain way, and they will make it difficult for us. They are having a good run, but, hey, let’s remember we were unbeaten in 8 prior to last week.

Things had picked up but now we’ve got to dust ourselves down and go again. There is still a long way to go and I hope, I hope, that we’ve now got that little bit of quality and resilience that will get us there or thereabouts.

Thanks Steve for personally answering my post. I did not realise you had taken over @terrytini's profile. Good on you for taking note of what the fans say. Nice change from your normal behaviour. 

One question though, what did you do with Terry?

[Villan_of_oz]

4 hours ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

 

https://footballleagueworld.co.uk/unfortunately-for-villa-fans-no-the-verdict-on-steve-bruce-and-his-aston-villa-promotion-credentials/

Highlighted the bits which highlight how I think alot of us feel.

What do these pessimistic punters know, he has got 4 promotions you know?

Edited October 20, 2017 by Villan_of_oz

[Villan_of_oz]

8 hours ago, bannedfromHandV said:

All else aside, surely it's dependent on how we do tomorrow (both performance and result)?

 

Things were moving in the right direction, Wolves was a setback but we were never going to go the rest of the season undefeated so it was inevitable at some point, yes the manner of the performance was uninspiring but again, we weren't going to go the season without putting in another poor performance.

 

Bounce back tomorrow with a decent performance and a win and the picture will look far better again.

Ok so what will be the outlook from you if we lose 2-0, and never give a yelp like last week? 

[Dave J]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

If we could be sure of the long term gain....it would be a reasonable consideration.

Well to be honest TRO I for one would twist now - he’s done or showed nothing in my humble opinion to suggest he should stay.

last week should tell everyone just how much of a yesterday man he is.

Wolves simply took us apart and probably should have scored more - if you need any more convincing that he’s not the man for the job - just turn on catch up !!

[mrjc]

7 hours ago, TRO said:

Er....Not exactly as you put it.

I would let him have this season and see where it takes us....no more money in Jan, this squad should be good enough to go up.

There are and have been for too long, flaws in our play that I genuinely felt would be ironed out in time.....its evident that is not the case......the same problems just drift along from match to match win, lose or draw.....they are still there.

I think every manager deserves a fair crack of the whip and deserves the time to get the players to work to his way of thinking.....that takes varying lengths of time depending on many factors......I am beginning to feel enough time has now been allocated.

I still feel changing managers now is not right for both managers.....SB needs to be given the chance to finish the season.....an new manager deserves a window and a pre-season, the games come too fast and the pressure of promotion is not fair on a new guy.

We need to see this season through, but the hierarchy, need to be preparing contingincy plans fir the summer.

I agree with a lot of this, and for a long time I too genuinely felt it would get better (looking back at last season now though, our good run seems based on much weaker foundations than I thought at the time). 

My view differs on the course of action from here. I don't see it that Bruce does 'need' any more time. I wouldn't have expected him to have solved all of our problems, but I would have expected a lot more progress, and genuine signs of it, than we have. 

That, along with our financial situation, means I just don't think we can afford, probably literally, just to accept that we see this season through. I think we need to go for what we think is our best chance of promotion. I think that is change - giving somebody else (not sure who), an okay(ish) amount of time with a decent squad that's on the fringes at the moment. It's not risk free, and absolutely no guarantee of success, and I see your point that it's not completely fair on the new guy. But in my opinion we stand a better chance that way than by sticking.  I think if we stick we stay down, and things could get really grim. 

 

[TRO]

3 hours ago, mrjc said:

I agree with a lot of this, and for a long time I too genuinely felt it would get better (looking back at last season now though, our good run seems based on much weaker foundations than I thought at the time). 

My view differs on the course of action from here. I don't see it that Bruce does 'need' any more time. I wouldn't have expected him to have solved all of our problems, but I would have expected a lot more progress, and genuine signs of it, than we have. 

That, along with our financial situation, means I just don't think we can afford, probably literally, just to accept that we see this season through. I think we need to go for what we think is our best chance of promotion. I think that is change - giving somebody else (not sure who), an okay(ish) amount of time with a decent squad that's on the fringes at the moment. It's not risk free, and absolutely no guarantee of success, and I see your point that it's not completely fair on the new guy. But in my opinion we stand a better chance that way than by sticking.  I think if we stick we stay down, and things could get really grim. 

 

Hmmmm

I'm glad i am not the one to make the call.

Edited October 21, 2017 by TRO

[Villarocker]

On 19/10/2017 at 11:45, flashingqwerty said:

To add to the above, he even said before the game that 4-4-2 doesnt work against wolves.

That makes his lack of early changes even more confusing and damning for me.

Ok maybe he went 4-4-2 to appear more attacking despite his better judgement.  But to watch us struggle and not change is a disgrace and to change only after cnceeding twice and the game having gone beyond salvage unforgivable for me.

If it were a 1 off or a rare occurence then ok but this happens it more than half our matches.

We were 6-3-1 not 4-4-2

[TRO]

We can have any formation we like......but if our players are losing out on one on one, it can turn out to be anything ad hoc.....because they all end up retreating.

[TRO]

12 hours ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

Well nothing is ever guaranteed mate, but you certainly give yourself a better chance by having a team/management structure in place with a clear plan, adaptability, and progression etc.

Currently I feel we are punching way below our weight.

It is pointless for us to turn this into another Pro/con Bruce debate though.

For instance, when we were pushing for Champions League, and decided to sign was it Harewood or Heskey? Instead of a top striker/attacker, we lessened our chances of pushing on.

Now we could have signed Messi or Ronaldo, and although the "gain" would not have been guaranteed, it would have been a damn sight better of a chance. lol

I see all the problems....what I don't see clearly, is the solutions.

Do we get rid of Steve Bruce to appoint another Steve Bruce to tread water for another 12 months to give another manager time.

There is no guarantee's, we all know that......but where is the confidence coming from to ensure we sign a new manager with all the credentials we crave and can demonstrate in an interview this plan, structure, blueprint , Roadmap.....call it what you will.

I might be sitting on the fence.....but judging by the last 7 years of misjudgment, it might be the safest place.

[TrentVilla]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

I see all the problems....what I don't see clearly, is the solutions.

Do we get rid of Steve Bruce to appoint another Steve Bruce to tread water for another 12 months to give another manager time.

There is no guarantee's, we all know that......but where is the confidence coming from to ensure we sign a new manager with all the credentials we crave and can demonstrate in an interview this plan, structure, blueprint , Roadmap.....call it what you will.

I might be sitting on the fence.....but judging by the last 7 years of misjudgment, it might be the safest place.

I don’t think a change of manager is sufficient. I think Wyness and quite possibly Round need to go as well.

I don’t think we’ve any of the structure of key personnel right currently but I’m realistic enough to know that those things won’t change any time soon and we likely can’t afford to change them or fund the work to be done by their replacements.

We are where we are, we just have to hope Bruce scapes play offs.

[TRO]

50 minutes ago, TrentVilla said:

I don’t think a change of manager is sufficient. I think Wyness and quite possibly Round need to go as well.

I don’t think we’ve any of the structure of key personnel right currently but I’m realistic enough to know that those things won’t change any time soon and we likely can’t afford to change them or fund the work to be done by their replacements.

We are where we are, we just have to hope Bruce scapes play offs.

TV

I will continue to support him until he is no longer with us, but while he is our manager, i will give him my full support.....as i have done for every Villa manager, including Billy McNeill and Graham Turner ( begrudgingly)

That is not the same as not appreciating the criticisms of the turgid football we have to endure and the amateurish play i witness on too many Occasions.

I never boo during a game and never slag the team off while they are playing, because they can hear it and its counter productive.....that said, i am Human too and its disappointing to see shortfalls appearing every week.

The club will do whatever is necessary, when they feel the time is right....we can't do much more than trust in their judgment.

thats just my call.

Edited October 21, 2017 by TRO

[TrentVilla]

I support the team, not the manager. My backing for a manager is conditional not unconditional.

Right now I’d say I’m of the view that Bruce needs to go rather than calling for him to go. There is a small but important difference.

I’m long since past debating him, his merits or his failings. The things I said about him in the summer remain as true now as they were then in my view.

I’ve seen nothing and expect to see nothing to change my view of him as a manager. Even achieving promotion wouldn’t alter that view even though he would have achieved his goal.

Even if we were promoted I’d replace him in the summer.

 

[terrytini]

2 hours ago, TRO said:

We can have any formation we like......but if our players are losing out on one on one, it can turn out to be anything ad hoc.....because they all end up retreating.

It’s still my view that ‘retreating’ is actually a direct result of a ‘defence first’ policy.

IMO we still play too deeply, we still ask the two wide guys to defend first, attack second, we still play with a foot on the brake.

I don’t think it’s the players, and I agree it’s not the formation. It’s the approach.

I’m always reminded of the Don Howe way from the seventies, whereas I think the fans, players, and results, would benefit more from a touch of Keegan from the nineties.

[terrytini]

1 hour ago, TrentVilla said:

I don’t think a change of manager is sufficient. I think Wyness and quite possibly Round need to go as well.

I don’t think we’ve any of the structure of key personnel right currently but I’m realistic enough to know that those things won’t change any time soon and we likely can’t afford to change them or fund the work to be done by their replacements.

We are where we are, we just have to hope Bruce scapes play offs.

I really hate it when I read something like this and find it impossible to disagree !

[Villarocker]

2 hours ago, TRO said:

We can have any formation we like......but if our players are losing out on one on one, it can turn out to be anything ad hoc.....because they all end up retreating.

I hear you mate but, take that first goal for example. It is clear to see that Bruce gave the players instructions to close ranks and make it difficult for the Wolves front three to play through us. The net result of that was that Elmohamady got so used to having Snodgrass the other side of him that he neglected his basic duty of marking the player that scored. Had Snodgrass not always been there helping out maybe Elmohamady would have taken care of his own job and the goal wouldn't have happened. 

Bruce needs to show trust in players to take care of their own game. If he thinks they aren't capable then it shows a lot of problems - recruitment, coaching, ability etc.  

Further to the above, think about a job. A guy might be great at his job but as soon as you move him into another area to help out he might not be so comfortable and even become a hindrance rather than a solution. Meanwhile, that person's own job is suffering because he isn't being able to concentrate fully on his own role. 

I think Bruce needs to show more faith. If he sees that back two has too slow or cumbersome then he surely has to take responsibility for that because it was he that made that our centre back pairing and there were no secrets about the lack of pace of the two players occupying those positions. 

Edited October 21, 2017 by villarocker