Steve Bruce

[terrytini]

48 minutes ago, USA_Villa said:

Let me reply to your observations:

• Inherited a team in 22nd place, as of writing in 4th place - But with one of, if not  the, largest payrolls and transfer funds in the division. Should be better than 4th
• Demonstrable track record of winning promotion from this division - Really, are we still playing that old tune. It all comes down to the next two weeks.
• Best season we've had in many years in terms of points gained, games won and goals scored - We are in the Championship with one of the most expensive squads every built for this division. Whoop De Du
• Has the ability and network to bring in players like Terry, Snodgrass, Grabban etc - No, Money does that
• Has worked to a relatively tight budget, particularly in the past 12 months - No he hasn't, plus he's spent a lot of money on average ageing players
• Has installed an excellent team spirit (seemingly so, at least) - Don't care about team spirit. I want promotion.
• We actually win games screened live on TV now - I can't believe you even included this one
• Unbeaten vs the shite - A good one
• Shown immense professionalism through truly difficult personal circumstances - Tough times, responded well. However, continually has a go at the fans when we pass judgement on losses or performances. Where's his immense professionalism then?

The next two to three games will define his tenure at Aston Villa. If we don't go up he has to go.

As I’ve said there are arguments both ways.

But your argument appears to be that everything good has come as a result of the balance sheet, and that given that balance sheet we should’ve done better.

Im afraid I see no merit at all in that, since there are literally hundreds of examples where football is about much, much more...( thank goodness).

[terrytini]

29 minutes ago, TRO said:

predictable and begrudging......poor response IMO

I don’t mind arguments being predictable but I must admit in my opinion an argument that basically says we’ve spent “X” which must equate to “Y” barely merits the effort required to read it.

[Vive_La_Villa]

5 hours ago, terrytini said:

The only question will be whether you think a new figure, with new plans, is more or less likely to get another half a dozen points than Bruce is. Punishment or otherwise for this season, the money spent, and everything else is utterly irrelevant.

And there are decent arguments either way. Neither pro nor anti shoukd dispute that.

For me, I think it’d be a huge mistake to get rid of him. Huge. 

But it won’t come up, since we will beat Boro 3-2 tomorrow and 2-1 next week, and beat Derby 3-1 in the Final. 100% totally non speculative certainty.

The other question is whether you think Bruce can get half a dozen more points than Bruce 

[USA_Villa]

1 hour ago, terrytini said:

I don’t mind arguments being predictable but I must admit in my opinion an argument that basically says we’ve spent “X” which must equate to “Y” barely merits the effort required to read it.

Villa top Championship spending table with a squad that cost $67 Million, Cardiff spent $18 Million. That doesn't look like a good ROI just yet, does it? Let's see what happens in the next two weeks. I would love to eat some humble pie.

[Dave J]

1 hour ago, terrytini said:

I don’t mind arguments being predictable but I must admit in my opinion an argument that basically says we’ve spent “X” which must equate to “Y” barely merits the effort required to read it.

But surely you acknowledge that generally the clubs with the most money tend to be more successful ? Agreed there will always be exceptions e.g Leicester and to our cost no pun intended Cardiff. So I don't think it is unfair to say X =Y?

[terrytini]

23 minutes ago, Dave J said:

But surely you acknowledge that generally the clubs with the most money tend to be more successful ? Agreed there will always be exceptions e.g Leicester and to our cost no pun intended Cardiff. So I don't think it is unfair to say X =Y?

I acknowledge it is more likely you will be more successful the more you spend, in general, yes.

But in no way is it inevitable, and I’m not on about the Leicesters, but the Chelsea’s, Arsenal’s, Everton’s, Liverpool’s , Man United, Villa, and loads more.

I don’t think it’s unfair to say x = y, I think it’s naive and/ or ill informed, it’s nonsense. In my view.

[terrytini]

50 minutes ago, USA_Villa said:

Villa top Championship spending table with a squad that cost $67 Million, Cardiff spent $18 Million. That doesn't look like a good ROI just yet, does it? Let's see what happens in the next two weeks. I would love to eat some humble pie.

Im in danger of repeating myself, so I’ll rephrase it.

The idea that one can sensibly assess how well a Manager has done, will do,  or is doing,  at a given time by relating a given League position to how much money a Club has spent in a given time is, in my view, absolutely ridiculous. 

 

[Dave J]

13 minutes ago, terrytini said:

I acknowledge it is more likely you will be more successful the more you spend, in general, yes.

But in no way is it inevitable, and I’m not on about the Leicesters, but the Chelsea’s, Arsenal’s, Everton’s, Liverpool’s , Man United, Villa, and loads more.

I don’t think it’s unfair to say x = y, I think it’s naive and/ or ill informed, it’s nonsense. In my view.

Terry - surely there is a contradiction in there? You acknowledge on one hand and then say it's naive on the other?  I can see to a degree what you are saying re: the Chelsea, city's united of this world slugging it out between themselves - but in truth it's just a mini league of the wealthiest clubs so in some respects voids the argument - we are talking about us being a wealthy club compared to the likes of Cardiff, Fulham, Derby who are considerably less well off than Villa and where X = Y is much more applicable  in my view.

[Vive_La_Villa]

21 minutes ago, terrytini said:

Im in danger of repeating myself, so I’ll rephrase it.

The idea that one can sensibly assess how well a Manager has done, will do,  or is doing,  at a given time by relating a given League position to how much money a Club has spent in a given time is, in my view, absolutely ridiculous. 

 

I agree with this to an extent. You also have to look at how the manager has spent and how they have used their players too the disposal.  I think Bruce has done fairly well with the funds he has and I wouldn’t be opposed to him having more money to spend. 

But in terms of how we played in my opinion we were found wanting in far too many games this season. 

Now you could argue the players are maybe not good enough as a squad. If that’s the case you either a) back the manager to change the players with better players if this is possible or b) change the manager to try and get the best out of the players you already have. 

If we don’t go up there will be a lot for the board to consider. 

[markavfc40]

1 hour ago, USA_Villa said:

Villa top Championship spending table with a squad that cost $67 Million, Cardiff spent $18 Million. That doesn't look like a good ROI just yet, does it? 

I can't believe that a couple of wins away from promotion and I come into this thread to see these kinds of debates with so much else to focus on.

The trouble is with just looking at money spent on squads as a guide to how well it should be doing is that it assumes the money was spent well and much of ours wasn't. The 30 mill spent on McCormack, Tshibola, Gollini, Elphick (to a lesser extent) was wasted. None of those signings were made by the current manager by the way.

In terms of Bruce he has done well in the transfer market and turned a decent profit whilst assembling a very good squad. He spent a couple of mill in the summer on Whelan and Elmo who for that have proved great value. The capture of John Terry was as much to do with the stature of the club as Bruce but he still influenced it. The loan signing of Snodgrass has proved to be excellent, likewise the capture of Grabban. In January 2017 we spent around 8 mill combined on Hourihane, Bjarnason, Lansbury and Bree. Hourihane has done really well, Bjarnason has come good the last few months, Lansbury has had his chances restricted due as much to those in front of him rather than his own form and Bree was always bought with one eye on the future and looks a very promising prospect. The one signing I would question is Hogan and if I judged him today I would have to say we paid over the odds for him but every manager will get the odd signing wrong.

For me Bruce has assembled a squad capable of promotion and fair play to him for that. He now has to get it over the line and I am confident he will and I am not even contemplating that not being the case. The debate if that happens can be left to another day. 

Edited May 11, 2018 by markavfc40

[terrytini]

49 minutes ago, Dave J said:

Terry - surely there is a contradiction in there? You acknowledge on one hand and then say it's naive on the other?  I can see to a degree what you are saying re: the Chelsea, city's united of this world slugging it out between themselves - but in truth it's just a mini league of the wealthiest clubs so in some respects voids the argument - we are talking about us being a wealthy club compared to the likes of Cardiff, Fulham, Derby who are considerably less well off than Villa and where X = Y is much more applicable  in my view.

Something can be generally true without being always true.

But those that consider money spent as the decisive factor aren’t going to change their minds, and neither am I, so onwards and upwards..

[Dave J]

1 hour ago, terrytini said:

Something can be generally true without being always true.

But those that consider money spent as the decisive factor aren’t going to change their minds, and neither am I, so onwards and upwards..

Terry with the greatest of respect this is a little bit like wanting your cake and eating it.

to a point I see what you are striving at - but I'm afraid it's a point that only goes so far. Imho 

[terrytini]

18 minutes ago, Dave J said:

Terry with the greatest of respect this is a little bit like wanting your cake and eating it.

to a point I see what you are striving at - but I'm afraid it's a point that only goes so far. Imho 

I’m amazed you don’t see it. It’s simple enough surely ? Nothing to do with having things both ways.

If someone thinks it’s all about money that’s fine, I think that’s nonsense, they don’t, fair enough.

But I don’t understand what you don’t see ?

There are loads of things in life where often a Thing A correlates with Thing B, but not always ....are you more likely to crash at high speed ? Yes, but that doesn’t mean high speed means you will crash etc etc there’s billions of examples.

......so money often matters, but often doesn’t, it can make a big difference, but there’s loads of examples and reasons why it doesn’t. I’m not sure that’s a complex idea ?

Anyway, as I said those that think you decide by looking at the Accounts aren’t going to change their view, and I’m certainly not.

 

[Dave J]

2 minutes ago, terrytini said:

I’m amazed you don’t see it. It’s simple enough surely ? Nothing to do with having things both ways.

If someone thinks it’s all about money that’s fine, I think that’s nonsense, they don’t, fair enough.

But I don’t understand what you don’t see ?

There are loads of things in life where often a Thing A correlates with Thing B, but not always ....are you more likely to crash at high speed ? Yes, but that doesn’t mean high speed means you will crash etc etc there’s billions of examples.

......so money often matters, but often doesn’t, it can make a big difference, but there’s loads of examples and reasons why it doesn’t. I’m not sure that’s a complex idea ?

Anyway, as I said those that think you decide by looking at the Accounts aren’t going to change their view, and I’m certainly not.

 

Terry I do respect most things you say and enjoy reading what you post - however I feel you have only confirmed what I said in my previous response - I guess this is most definitely a case of agree to disagree?

[M_Afro]

We are a few hours away from a massive game. Nothing else matters. Show some class fellow Villans. Unity is required now. Let’s show all watching what a class act we can be.

[terrytini]

50 minutes ago, Dave J said:

Terry I do respect most things you say and enjoy reading what you post - however I feel you have only confirmed what I said in my previous response - I guess this is most definitely a case of agree to disagree?

Indeed I’m sure we will revisit it. Time for an early night for an early start !

[DCJonah]

Bruce saying that regardless of what happens he intends to stay on. 

Bit disappointed that on the eve of a huge game he is also once again bringing up FFP and talking about how he has been financially restricted. I really don't like that. My opinion on him has changed big time this year but that has annoyed me a bit.  

[srsmithusa]

4 hours ago, Dave J said:

Terry with the greatest of respect this is a little bit like wanting your cake and eating it.

to a point I see what you are striving at - but I'm afraid it's a point that only goes so far. Imho 

Terry, I don’t think any one said money is decisive. (On the other hand, a look at the premiership and the Euro’s make it impossible to say it is not significant.).

money matters.  And our club spent MUCH   more than most in this league on playing staff.   Relative to funding resources, Bruce has underperformed.  We don’t need to be discussing whether he should be fired or not till after promotion is settled.  But you know where I lean.   

[Lerner's Driver]

Some Villa fans have exceedingly high expectations of the manager... irrespective of who it is and the prevailing circumstances. Fair enough, it's almost inevitable they do, given the irrational love we all pour into supporting our very special club. But... experience tells us, unrealistic expectation only leads to disappointment. Again and again and again.

That said, struggling through adversity and yes, sometimes whilst being his own worst enemy, is what Steven Bruce is all about - you could say that's his USP, or even his modus operandi. Who knows how we will fare over the next two games, but if ever the script was written for him it is now. If we lose, I suspect he'll resign, but I'm not betting against him knowing exactly what's required, one last time.

Perhaps it's in the stars. Up the Villa!

[Jareth]

Promotion will mean the absolute world to us, if Bruce gets us that then it's very simple, he has to stay.