Steve Bruce

[DaveAV1]

22 minutes ago, TRO said:

Dave, come the end of September and we have an unacceptable amount of points my comments will be wasted.

but what if he wins every game.

We have just bought half a team in the summer, is he not entitled to see how they go.

I have already quoted in earlier posts he has a win ratio with us of 41.9%.....its not great, but its not sacking material either.

Villa's Average in its history is around that......Wagners career is 38.2%/ 44% at Huddersfield......Jokanovic is 41.8 at Fulham in 85 games.

He may be a lost cause....but i am trying to put a bit of perspective in here.

I think come the end of September, we will all have a clearer view.

Well the recent comments from Xia suggest that he will judge him at the end of the month. If he wins every game, of which I believe 4 are at home, so he has every chance, then of course he won't be sacked and we'll all be happy. For a while at least.... 

[AJ]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

you make some feasible statements, very difficult to argue against.....I'm not sure what is going to magically change over the next 5 games, just like I did not know what magically changed against Norwich and Wigan....maybe the players found some form

what formation do you suggest he adopts and sticks to?......you have told us what you don't want, tell us what you do want.

lots of people have been spouting lots of stuff off to: (I would imagine) 1) express their frustration 2) to try to find a solution as to why we are not doing what we all expected.

Lots of things have been written about Steve Bruce .....but during his career he has demonstrated an ability to wins games  at a rate comparable to managers whose names have been put forward replace him......any idea why that is?

Firstly TRO, I respect your opinions, and your optimism is something to be admired.

Steve Bruce's overall record suggests he is a good manager, and yes, I believe he is. However, over the full period of his tenure, I don't believe he is a good manager for us. If/When he leaves, and decides to take a job with another smaller club, I am pretty confident he will do well there.

Obviously, this can go three ways at the end of September.

Bruce can still stutter, dropping more points that we should have won, and leave fans alike in bewilderment with wacky tactics and silly selections. Tony has enough, then wields the axe.

He has a good September, he stays and earns a new contract, but results in that month only paper over the cracks, and we finish the season mid table, condemning Villa to the Championship for many years to come.

Third scenario, he has a good month, and builds on it. We continue,  we have a good season, gain promotion, and all the " vultures" are proven wrong. Everyone is happy, and there is wild dancing in the streets.

As much as I want the Disney movie ending, its more likely to end like an episode of Game of Thrones.

 

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

Well i'll be damned...

http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/forward-thinking-fierce-competitor-aston-13565121

Quote

 

Forward thinking and a fierce competitor: The Aston Villa board's view of Steve Bruce

Steve Bruce endured a tough week last month when back to back defeats to Cardiff City and Reading heaped pressure on him with the Aston Villa fanbase.

But the Villa board were always confident Bruce would emerge through that tough time and the manager bounced back with two resounding wins and a battling draw.

The wins came with 4-2 and 4-1 Villa Park successes over Norwich City and Wigan Athletic in the Championship and Carabao Cup, with the draw at Bristol City in the league.

Bruce's challenge now, with the transfer window shut and his squad assembled, is to crank up the momentum when Villa return to action next weekend.

Owner Tony Xia has stressed that September is a 'crucial' month where 'only results matter' and Villa kick off a run of six Championship fixtures at home to Brentford on Saturday, September 9.

Bruce can count upon the board's support and nothing has changed in that sense since Keith Wyness sung the manager's praises on the eve of the season.

In an interview with popular Villa fans' YouTube channel, the club's chief executive gave the 56-year-old Geordie a glowing endorsement.

"Steve's been great, I've got to say," said Wyness.

"I've worked with a number of managers, but Steve's been a real pleasure to work with.

"He told me that he hardly sleeps during the season because of his fear of losing and I admire that about him.

"He still is a very fierce competitior. We have good chats, we talk things through and he's been very reasonable and very forward thinking.

"Hes also putting a lot of work in, not just in the training of players, but in acquiring players, as you've seen with John Terry.

"Steve does a lot of work behind the scenes and he seems to never stop."

 

 

Edited September 2, 2017 by JAMAICAN-VILLAN

[Bunnski]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

Dave, come the end of September and we have an unacceptable amount of points my comments will be wasted.

but what if he wins every game.

We have just bought half a team in the summer, is he not entitled to see how they go.

I have already quoted in earlier posts he has a win ratio with us of 41.9%.....its not great, but its not sacking material either.

Villa's Average in its history is around that......Wagners career is 38.2%/ 44% at Huddersfield......Jokanovic is 41.8 at Fulham in 85 games.

He may be a lost cause....but i am trying to put a bit of perspective in here.

I think come the end of September, we will all have a clearer view.

Anyone know what his loss percentage is? 

[USA_Villa]

I have many problems with the Evening Mail article above. My biggest issue is with the line "He told me that he hardly sleeps during the season because of his fear of losing and I admire that about him.  

Now we know why he sets the team up not lose for away games. Grow some Balls Steve.

[Chicken Field]

9 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

"He told me that he hardly sleeps during the season because of his fear of losing and I admire that about him.

Hate that quote, surely at a club with the ambition of finishing top two, the fear of losing or drawing should keep him up at night ! Drawing 46 games will get you relegated. 

Also the fear of losing is why we play the negative stuff ! we need to have the mentality that we fear to fail to win and attack.

[Junxs]

On 01/09/2017 at 18:55, TRO said:

In 2015/2016....Sean Dyche took Burnley up as champions with a 56% win ratio......his career is running at 39.1% win ratio.

The same year Steve Bruce took Hull up finishing 4th, with a 52% win ratio his career is running at 37.8% win ratio.....and for the purists at villa currently 41.9% win ratio.

both men clearly out punching their weight that season.

just to give some insight to recent times

In 2016/2017 season....Rafa Benitez took Newcastle up with an impressive 63% win ratio and his career is running at 51% win ratio overall.

the same year David Wagner secured promotion for Huddersfield finishing 5th with a 54% win ratio compared to his career running rate of 38.2% win ratio.

Did you stop to think why their win ratios were higher? Maybe something to do with playing in the 2nd tier.. It is obvious they would all have better win ratios than their career averages in the championship, so not sure why you felt the need to prove it statistically.. 

[Junxs]

23 minutes ago, Chicken Field said:

Hate that quote, surely at a club with the ambition of finishing top two, the fear of losing or drawing should keep him up at night ! Drawing 46 games will get you relegated. 

Also the fear of losing is why we play the negative stuff ! we need to have the mentality that we fear to fail to win and attack.

No not fear of drawing.. he sees those as positives. Maybe if he did have a fear of drawing he wouldn't set up so negative.. his quote was "fear of losing" only

[Grasshopper]

re: win percentages........

if you ( presuming the 2ppg theory gets you promoted) set a target of 92pts (2ppg = 46 games x 2pts) for promotion. then surely.......:

comparing a car that needs 92 miles worth of petrol to complete the journey "home" (the parallel equation may look like this) however the tank hold enough (full) for (3ppg -= 46 x 3 - 138) 138 miles, that means 138 = 100% points ratio 92pts = 66.66r%.

You would tank up for at least 92 miles and nothing less

Bruce had a record of 51pts from 35 games (iirc) My maths is as shyte as Bruce's formations thats less than 100% (105pts) or 66.66r% (70pts)

I'd like to remind people who quote win ratios that

from every 10 games a 50% win ratio may only get you 15pts if your loss ratio is also 50%

a lower win ratio could get you more points if say for example 40% win ratio + 10% loss ratio + 50% draw ratio = 17pts

but even win ratio's, pts gained v pts lost, possesion stats and all those other variables means F*** all if AVFC are not in the top 2 come May 2018. they only pointer to if it's mathematically possible or not.

Bruce NOT winning more games than we lose WONT get us promoted.

the overall count is now 40+

THIS season its 1 win from 5 with 2 defeats. So ANY draws or defeats within the next 6 games in Sept keeps us further away from a "Break-even" 2ppg ratio. as we need 3ppg for 5 games (to catch up) the another win (6th game) to stay above the 2ppg ratio.

Can anyone see that happening?

 

[thabucks]

I dislike Wyness now as much as Bruce. Both need to go as imo the set up is all wrong for our supposed grandiose ambitions. I can't see what we are building. 

[Jareth]

10 minutes ago, thabucks said:

I dislike Wyness now as much as Bruce. Both need to go as imo the set up is all wrong for our supposed grandiose ambitions. I can't see what we are building. 

They have very different jobs.

[TheStagMan]

3 hours ago, TRO said:

you make some feasible statements, very difficult to argue against.....I'm not sure what is going to magically change over the next 5 games, just like I did not know what magically changed against Norwich and Wigan....maybe the players found some form

We stopped playing defensively and attacked. We played with a player capable of holding the ball up, which allowed other players to get in on the act and push forward. We played less defensively. 

You are right, something clicked. However - we were playing a Norwich team that are demonstrably out of form, having been tonked by both Sunderland and Milwall before and since (although they did OK against QPR), and Colchester are a division below us. 

But they were good performances, and instead of taking that momentum and pushing on, our manager went three at the back and invited pressure. Once again we looked lost. We have a lot of attacking players, but we are playing them in a defensive setup.

Will something change over the next few games? I doubt it.

Let me turn this back on something you said above - you are not sure anything is going to magically change over the next 5 games - so why give him more time, surely the sensible reason for giving someone more time, is because you can see things coming together, you can see a plan and you can see how things will turn round. I'm sorry, but as much as I want to see that, it just isn't there to see.

3 hours ago, TRO said:

what formation do you suggest he adopts and sticks to?......you have told us what you don't want, tell us what you do want.

I want to see a formation that utilizes our players talents to the best of their abilities. 

I want to see a 4-3-3 with either Davis or Hogan spearheading the attack, and the likes of Hourihan running in behind. I would play this against stronger teams where we need a bit more strength in midfield.

I would like to see a 4-4-2 when Kodjia is back, with either Hogan or Davis next to him against weaker teams where we absolutely take the game to them. 

I do not want to EVER see 3 at the back for Villa again. 

I do not want to EVER see Gabby or Hutton in a Villa shirt again.

I do not want to EVER see Micah Richards on a football pitch again (at least this one is likely).

I do not want to hear bullshit excuses coming out of Steve Bruce's mouth. 

I do not want to EVER hear our manager blaming the fans for their expectations being too high.

 

3 hours ago, TRO said:

lots of people have been spouting lots of stuff off to: (I would imagine) 1) express their frustration 2) to try to find a solution as to why we are not doing what we all expected.

Which they are perfectly entitled to do

3 hours ago, TRO said:

Lots of things have been written about Steve Bruce .....but during his career he has demonstrated an ability to wins games  at a rate comparable to managers whose names have been put forward replace him......any idea why that is?

Frankly no, and it is something that puzzles me. When we signed him, as I have said before I was on-board with it, I thought he would be a solid choice to get us promoted, for whatever reason he just isn't cutting it here. Maybe it is too big a job for him, maybe football has moved on, maybe he had better coaches before, I don't know. 

What I do know is that he is not saying or doing anything that makes me confident he will continue that trend here (did we get the correct Steve Bruce?) - and regardless of what he has done before, he needs to go. 

3 hours ago, TRO said:

 

Edited September 2, 2017 by TheStagMan

[TheStagMan]

1 hour ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

Well i'll be damned...

http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/forward-thinking-fierce-competitor-aston-13565121

Forward thinking and a fierce competitor: The Aston Villa board's view of Steve Bruce

Steve Bruce endured a tough week last month when back to back defeats to Cardiff City and Reading heaped pressure on him with the Aston Villa fanbase.

But the Villa board were always confident Bruce would emerge through that tough time and the manager bounced back with two resounding wins and a battling draw.

The wins came with 4-2 and 4-1 Villa Park successes over Norwich City and Wigan Athletic in the Championship and Carabao Cup, with the draw at Bristol City in the league.

Bruce's challenge now, with the transfer window shut and his squad assembled, is to crank up the momentum when Villa return to action next weekend.

Owner Tony Xia has stressed that September is a 'crucial' month where 'only results matter' and Villa kick off a run of six Championship fixtures at home to Brentford on Saturday, September 9.

Bruce can count upon the board's support and nothing has changed in that sense since Keith Wyness sung the manager's praises on the eve of the season.

In an interview with popular Villa fans' YouTube channel, the club's chief executive gave the 56-year-old Geordie a glowing endorsement.

"Steve's been great, I've got to say," said Wyness.

"I've worked with a number of managers, but Steve's been a real pleasure to work with.

"He told me that he hardly sleeps during the season because of his fear of losing and I admire that about him.

"He still is a very fierce competitior. We have good chats, we talk things through and he's been very reasonable and very forward thinking.

"Hes also putting a lot of work in, not just in the training of players, but in acquiring players, as you've seen with John Terry.

"Steve does a lot of work behind the scenes and he seems to never stop."

 

**** me. Is Wyness Mental?

Seriously. He respects a man who admits he is so shit scared of losing he cannot sleep at night. THAT IS NOT A POSITIVE!!!!!!!!! Find me any other manager anywhere in football that would say that. Anywhere?

 

Thankfully that article does include the dreaded full support of the board so it shouldn't be long now. 

 

 

[TRO]

3 hours ago, TrentVilla said:

I don't get these "what if he wins ever game" lines, it is perfectly obvious that that won't happen. 

I think come the end of September he may well be gone.

People aren't lacking perspective, Bruce's record here has been poor. We've seen no improvement in almost a year and despite signing 13 or 14 players.

Thinking it might get better is fine, no harm in that but doing so has nothing to do with perspective.

• It is perfectly feasible he could win every game.....so we don't' agree on that.
• At the end of September I think it might be best for the unity of the club he does go actually.
• Bruce's record with us has not been great , poor is harsh imo.....Ron Saunders/Graham Taylor only had 45% win ratio's......Martin O'Neill and Brian Little had similar to Bruce.

This poor record is exaggerated.

We have played 5 games....won 1 drawn 2 lost 2.......not what we was expecting, but hardly attracting  the guillotine.

sorry Trent, on reflection I think perspective is apt.

 

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

9 minutes ago, TRO said:

• It is perfectly feasible he could win every game.....so we don't' agree on that.
• At the end of September I think it might be best for the unity of the club he does go actually.
• Bruce's record with us has not been great , poor is harsh imo.....Ron Saunders/Graham Taylor only had 45% win ratio's......Martin O'Neill and Brian Little had similar to Bruce.

This poor record is exaggerated.

We have played 5 games....won 1 drawn 2 lost 2.......not what we was expecting, but hardly attracting  the guillotine.

sorry Trent, on reflection I think perspective is apt.

 

I'll never understand, comparing Managers records in the Premier League, with arguably much weaker squads (In relation to the league) to having a similar record (worse) with arguably the strongest squad in the League, a level under.

[TRO]

1 hour ago, TheStagMan said:

We stopped playing defensively and attacked. We played with a player capable of holding the ball up, which allowed other players to get in on the act and push forward. We played less defensively. 

You are right, something clicked. However - we were playing a Norwich team that are demonstrably out of form, having been tonked by both Sunderland and Milwall before and since (although they did OK against QPR), and Colchester are a division below us. 

But they were good performances, and instead of taking that momentum and pushing on, our manager went three at the back and invited pressure. Once again we looked lost. We have a lot of attacking players, but we are playing them in a defensive setup.

Will something change over the next few games? I doubt it.

Let me turn this back on something you said above - you are not sure anything is going to magically change over the next 5 games - so why give him more time, surely the sensible reason for giving someone more time, is because you can see things coming together, you can see a plan and you can see how things will turn round. I'm sorry, but as much as I want to see that, it just isn't there to see.

I want to see a formation that utilizes our players talents to the best of their abilities. 

I want to see a 4-3-3 with either Davis or Hogan spearheading the attack, and the likes of Hourihan running in behind. I would play this against stronger teams where we need a bit more strength in midfield.

I would like to see a 4-4-2 when Kodjia is back, with either Hogan or Davis next to him against weaker teams where we absolutely take the game to them. 

I do not want to EVER see 3 at the back for Villa again. 

I do not want to EVER see Gabby or Hutton in a Villa shirt again.

I do not want to EVER see Micah Richards on a football pitch again (at least this one is likely).

I do not want to hear bullshit excuses coming out of Steve Bruce's mouth. 

I do not want to EVER hear our manager blaming the fans for their expectations being too high.

 

Which they are perfectly entitled to do

Frankly no, and it is something that puzzles me. When we signed him, as I have said before I was on-board with it, I thought he would be a solid choice to get us promoted, for whatever reason he just isn't cutting it here. Maybe it is too big a job for him, maybe football has moved on, maybe he had better coaches before, I don't know. 

What I do know is that he is not saying or doing anything that makes me confident he will continue that trend here (did we get the correct Steve Bruce?) - and regardless of what he has done before, he needs to go. 

There are complaints about Bruce making excuses......Then you do the same in defending your argument, when we win

Winning games is the only thing that will instill confidence in all of us and negate most of the criticism aimed at him.

sorry for being so blunt.

[TRO]

11 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

I'll never understand, comparing Managers records in the Premier League, with arguably much weaker squads (In relation to the league) to having a similar record (worse) with arguably the strongest squad in the League, a level under.

Its never easy to compare anything due to varying factors.....but with so many factors to consider in football its what washes most of them out......some managers play in foreign leagues, some play in lower leagues, some have more money than others......but the swings and roundabouts wash themselves out......win ratio's are a good barometer particularly with Career stats.

you could say a manager in the lower prem raises his win ratio by going down to an easier level..... we know that is not always so.......we could say going up is harder, in Huddersfields case that is not so either,so far

Its as decent a yardstick as you can get...............and it does tend to correlate.

[TRO]

1 hour ago, TheStagMan said:

**** me. Is Wyness Mental?

Seriously. He respects a man who admits he is so shit scared of losing he cannot sleep at night. THAT IS NOT A POSITIVE!!!!!!!!! Find me any other manager anywhere in football that would say that. Anywhere?

 

Thankfully that article does include the dreaded full support of the board so it shouldn't be long now. 

 

 

I'm pretty sure it was John Gregory when asked what motivates him said " The fear of losing"

I have heard that line reeled out by sportsman/ businessmen/ all sorts of driven people.....its nothing new.

[TRO]

3 hours ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

Well i'll be damned...

http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/forward-thinking-fierce-competitor-aston-13565121

 

well if nothing else it shows its not a one dimensional discussion.

[TheStagMan]

26 minutes ago, TRO said:

There are complaints about Bruce making excuses......Then you do the same in defending your argument, when we win

Winning games is the only thing that will instill confidence in all of us and negate most of the criticism aimed at him.

sorry for being so blunt.

Behave, there is absolutely no comparison between that and the guff that Bruce is coming out with. If that is the best counter argument you have then you should stop trying my friend.