Steve Bruce

[TRO]

19 hours ago, mykeyb said:

                           Bunn

Bree       Chester     Baker    Taylor/Amavi

                        Jedinak

Gardner - Hourihane - Lansbury - Thor

                  Hogan - Kodja

 

Wouldnt be pretty by any stretch, might swap Adomah in for Gardner if Adomah could produce some end product.

 

I am just glad to see Johnstone, grealish and amavi rested.

I would leave out a Thor

let Jedinak & Gardner take on the defensive tendency and Hourihane & Lansbury the attacking tendency

4-1-3-2

[terrytini]

Great Post Mark.

Im also of the view there is no mystery - or curse !- here it's a product of under investment and neglect which, whilst they have now been largely corrected, will take time to be turned around.

The only bit I'd maybe differ on is the fans.  I would never Boo our Team, even at the end of a game, and I thought people were too quick to become vocally negative the other night, but it's not without cause.

People see a team of many of the top players in this Division playing as poorly as anything we've seen in five years- there isn't a Club in the Country where fans would be patient with that.

As regards the Manager myself and pretty much everyone I know are well aware it'd be better not to change again but he is giving people precious little reason to think he is the right one to stick with.

For myself - simply out of a desperate desire to get the positives that come with stability- I would give him s bit longer and hope for a change in approach, but if it doesn't happen I will join the chorus for change and it won't be due to impatience.

 

[TRO]

3 minutes ago, wilko154 said:

Unfortunately this is all based on assumptions that a manager can replicate their past success with Villa.

We assumed RDM would change our fortunes as he has achieved promotion before and won the Champions League... that didn't work

We assumed Bruce would change our fortunes as he has achieved promotion numerous times... so far that hasn't worked

A new manager would have new ideas, a new backroom staff and yes this could work. But we have had so much change at the club over the past few years that the logical explanation for our current decline is too much change too quickly. Changing manager at this stage would go against that logical explanation and fix. With all that being said, with our current run of form I can't see us doing much harm to ourselves replacing Bruce, it's not like a new manager coming in and losing a few games is going to make much difference to what most of us expect to happen over the next few games.

Its whether we consider setting ourselves back 6 months while a new manager comes in and don't forget......this manager has already had 7 wins in his first 12 games.....can we keep existing on new manager bounce.

I think we are well and truly speculating, that a new manager will fix this.

It could happen, but who knows......no one knows either way.

if and I emphasise if, stability is the key to the dark dungeon.....then getting rid of Bruce, could actually be self harming.

don't forget, we are talking short term v Long term.

[DaveAV1]

What has surprised me most about Steve Bruce are his signings in the January window. Don't get me wrong, I like almost all of them. But I would have thought that a manager with his experience and style would have at first addressed things at the back.

At GK he replaced inexperience with inexperience which was baffling to be polite. Then at central defence he did nothing. We've been relatively lucky with injuries in those positions, but if Baker and/or Chester are out for a while God help us. Finally we seem a much more solid team with a minder in front of the defence i.e. Jedinak. Surely he must have realised that a guy of his age wouldn't be able to play an entire half season and that he was only average anyway. but again he did nothing. 

He vastly improved the midfield but then decided to bypass them with hoof football.

He then moans about us not doing the basics, which is exactly what he had failed to do. He has essentially done what our managers did in the previous two transfer windows and acted like a kid in a sweet shop. 

[TRO]

31 minutes ago, markavfc40 said:

Mate I am not just picking on you here as a few seem to hold this opinion but you have expressed it most bluntly.

I don’t think the whole club is diseased. I’d probably agree with you if the vast majority of those involved with our relegation last season were still here now but that isn’t the case. New owner, new CEO, new technical director, new manager, new players, new scouts etc etc.

I think the issues here are that the club was an absolute shambolic mess from top to bottom when Xia took it over. You only have to look at things like the fact that in our 10 years under Lerner our none TV revenue rose by something like just 6%, that a club like Everton had more scouts working in the midlands than we did.  

The club was rotten from top to bottom and that left us in terms of on the field with a losing mentality ingrained. You don’t turn a club like ours around overnight. We were not a Newcastle who had a poor season and were relegated. This was years of neglect that saw us go down with a whimper on 17 points. The whole place needed rebuilding.

I think whilst results on the pitch haven’t yet materialised I think we are on a sounder footing now. We have an enthusiastic owner who is ambitious and appears to have the means both in terms of knowing how to build a business and provide the initial funds to set it on its way. We have both experienced and qualified staff in positions above the manager. Where it matters on the pitch we have seen something like a turnover of 35 players go in/out in the last 8 months. Seen two managers and two sets of coaching staff come in. I personally think the squad now on paper looks as good a group of individuals as a collective as any in this division. What we don’t have yet is a team but given the 30 odd ins/outs, the two managers etc that really shouldn’t be a surprise.

Given what we have endured the last half dozen years the last thing supporters want to hear is that they need to be patient but that is what is needed.

None of the above is to say that Bruce is the right man to manage us but whoever is the manager is going to need time to turn a group of very good individuals at this level into a team. Whilst they do so what we don’t need is individual players being jeered or the team as a whole, many of whom have been here 5 minutes, being booed off. I think the frustrations of many and the impatience is the only disease we have with in this club now.  

Absolutely spot on Mark.

However, in light of all that. I think it's inconceivable for anyone to say that the manager is the only one that is not allowed to claim mitigation for all that change.....and of course I know YOU are not saying that.

However ,something tells me that Steve Bruce may not get it right in time to save himself, but I think given the time he will turn it around.

your assessment is considered and accurate in my view and a vey welcome post in the midst of extreme and understandable frustration.

[delboy54]

I boo'd the team towards the end of the season last year, as well as the worse thing any fan can sing to their own team      "your not fit to wear the shirt" as they all deserved it

But not this season...

So is it the coaches?, or playing players in the "wrong" postions...Like Johnstone in goal :).......?

I am of the opinion that Bruce is the best man for the job, at the moment. Who is going to come here if he is sacked?

The good Doctor however is going to be looking at his "investment" and if its not performing he will want to do something about it.

Del

[Mantis]

47 minutes ago, markavfc40 said:

Mate I am not just picking on you here as a few seem to hold this opinion but you have expressed it most bluntly.

I don’t think the whole club is diseased. I’d probably agree with you if the vast majority of those involved with our relegation last season were still here now but that isn’t the case. New owner, new CEO, new technical director, new manager, new players, new scouts etc etc.

I think the issues here are that the club was an absolute shambolic mess from top to bottom when Xia took it over. You only have to look at things like the fact that in our 10 years under Lerner our none TV revenue rose by something like just 6%, that a club like Everton had more scouts working in the midlands than we did.  

The club was rotten from top to bottom and that left us in terms of on the field with a losing mentality ingrained. You don’t turn a club like ours around overnight. We were not a Newcastle who had a poor season and were relegated. This was years of neglect that saw us go down with a whimper on 17 points. The whole place needed rebuilding.

I think whilst results on the pitch haven’t yet materialised I think we are on a sounder footing now. We have an enthusiastic owner who is ambitious and appears to have the means both in terms of knowing how to build a business and provide the initial funds to set it on its way. We have both experienced and qualified staff in positions above the manager. Where it matters on the pitch we have seen something like a turnover of 35 players go in/out in the last 8 months. Seen two managers and two sets of coaching staff come in. I personally think the squad now on paper looks as good a group of individuals as a collective as any in this division. What we don’t have yet is a team but given the 30 odd ins/outs, the two managers etc that really shouldn’t be a surprise.

Given what we have endured the last half dozen years the last thing supporters want to hear is that they need to be patient but that is what is needed.

None of the above is to say that Bruce is the right man to manage us but whoever is the manager is going to need time to turn a group of very good individuals at this level into a team. Whilst they do so what we don’t need is individual players being jeered or the team as a whole, many of whom have been here 5 minutes, being booed off. I think the frustrations of many and the impatience is the only disease we have with in this club now.  

Exactly - all those changes yet virtually nothing has changed on the pitch. I'm quite patient and certainly don't expect immediate results overnight there's been barely any improvement at all despite dropping down a division and having on paper one of the league's best squads. There are serious mental issues surrounding the club which I don't believe have been rectified.

[rubberman]

14 minutes ago, DaveAV1 said:

What has surprised me most about Steve Bruce are his signings in the January window. Don't get me wrong, I like almost all of them. But I would have thought that a manager with his experience and style would have at first addressed things at the back.

At GK he replaced inexperience with inexperience which was baffling to be polite. Then at central defence he did nothing. We've been relatively lucky with injuries in those positions, but if Baker and/or Chester are out for a while God help us. Finally we seem a much more solid team with a minder in front of the defence i.e. Jedinak. Surely he must have realised that a guy of his age wouldn't be able to play an entire half season and that he was only average anyway. but again he did nothing. 

He vastly improved the midfield but then decided to bypass them with hoof football.

He then moans about us not doing the basics, which is exactly what he had failed to do. He has essentially done what our managers did in the previous two transfer windows and acted like a kid in a sweet shop. 

I agree.  I still think we have brought in more quality to the squad, but I said during the window that it felt like we were getting carried away and doing too much business.  Bruce said he regretted throwing so many new faces in at once and we would have settled far sooner if we had only brought in 3-4 players and been able to integrate them rather than ringing wholesale changes to squad and formation.  

Whatever happens for the rest of the season (and whoever is our manager) I don't want to see another summer of massive upheaval.  Obv a new keeper, but otherwise I hope it's only one or two additions (+ replacements for players leaving) and we actually try to build a team from what we've got who are obviously better than they are currently showing.

[Villarocker]

That scumbag Lerner was more interested in having loads of sales staff than having scouts for potential player recruitment. I believe (hope) that Bruce has better people around and above him to make the right footballing decisions for the club. If so, that would make it even more puzzling why he can't get the job done better.

[TRO]

54 minutes ago, terrytini said:

But we have played like it ever since he arrived !!!!!!!!!

Either you are wrong or he is the most incompetent Manager ever because over 20 games later he can't get us to play how he wants !!!!

I think to say he doesn't want to play this way beggars belief.

No he hasn't played this way since he arrived.....we were winning games, the football wasn't eye catching, but it was much tighter in the defensive side of the game.

we are wide open now ,Terry.

losing Jedinak and Kodjia has derailed a side that was already only just discovering the ability to see results out.....He had turned a bit of a corner and then wham, 2 keys players out.

He then hits Jan and attempts to buy the players to address your concerns about better quality football.....he bought other teams best players.....feasible or not?

The bottom line here Terry one way or the other it's been a season of disruption and turmoil for us.....we cannot just expect any manager to just swallow that and say business as usual.....its not usual and nothing like usual.

I think Steve Bruce is the right man for us.....I think the present run of results, defies that and it's something I have to accept in my defence of him.....but I stand by it.I am simply not convinced this guy is clueless, despite the clueless football I am watching.

He had a 41% win rate in his formative games with us, so he can do it.

If you was a Leicester fan, would you have bold enough to say towards the end of last season.....I think he should go, because I know what's coming next season?

No one accepts that these current results are acceptable.....but some of the things I see in the players have been with us during several managers reigns, he may be taking a step back to take 2 forward.

The one thing I don't know is how long these things take to fix, so I cannot make a judgement as to what is reasonable and what is not.

I think there may be a danger, that we are maybe trying to use a hammer to crack a nut.

[TRO]

37 minutes ago, DaveAV1 said:

What has surprised me most about Steve Bruce are his signings in the January window. Don't get me wrong, I like almost all of them. But I would have thought that a manager with his experience and style would have at first addressed things at the back.

At GK he replaced inexperience with inexperience which was baffling to be polite. Then at central defence he did nothing. We've been relatively lucky with injuries in those positions, but if Baker and/or Chester are out for a while God help us. Finally we seem a much more solid team with a minder in front of the defence i.e. Jedinak. Surely he must have realised that a guy of his age wouldn't be able to play an entire half season and that he was only average anyway. but again he did nothing. 

He vastly improved the midfield but then decided to bypass them with hoof football.

He then moans about us not doing the basics, which is exactly what he had failed to do. He has essentially done what our managers did in the previous two transfer windows and acted like a kid in a sweet shop. 

Problem is Dave in our position any mistake we make is highlighted due to the amount of change.

I agree with Gk but against Spurs he looked as competent as anything I have seen in recent years.

The DM I think , was an error.....we should have bought another one.

I think the hoofball, is a by product of Jedinak not playing, that Hourihane and Lansbury can't roam free further up field and create cohesion......and he is trying to Getz Hogan and Kodjia fed......

buts its clearly not working.

Edited February 16, 2017 by TRO

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

37 minutes ago, DaveAV1 said:

What has surprised me most about Steve Bruce are his signings in the January window. Don't get me wrong, I like almost all of them. But I would have thought that a manager with his experience and style would have at first addressed things at the back.

At GK he replaced inexperience with inexperience which was baffling to be polite. Then at central defence he did nothing. We've been relatively lucky with injuries in those positions, but if Baker and/or Chester are out for a while God help us. Finally we seem a much more solid team with a minder in front of the defence i.e. Jedinak. Surely he must have realised that a guy of his age wouldn't be able to play an entire half season and that he was only average anyway. but again he did nothing. 

He vastly improved the midfield but then decided to bypass them with hoof football.

He then moans about us not doing the basics, which is exactly what he had failed to do. He has essentially done what our managers did in the previous two transfer windows and acted like a kid in a sweet shop. 

Agreed, I thought he would have also brought in at least 1 big strong bastard, to replace and/or compete with Jedinak to solidify the midfield.

[mykeyb]

2 hours ago, TRO said:

Let's just do a what if:

• what if he is doing the right things or things any other manager would do....but its not working and needs time to get it to work.
• what if the players are not doing what he is asking
• what if we have too many chiefs and not enough Indians in the playing staff
• what if we Get Jedinak back, who hasn't played on a losing side for us.
• what if the balance is not right and he is changing things and giving players a chance in order to find a solution.
• what if all these new faces need time to gel and work together,despite our clamour for instant results.

There is always going to be a stronger case to get rid, when you are losing, but sometimes you just have to work your way through tough times.

I think stability and too many changes at one time is an issue and are we going to walk in to the same scenario again.....for every Clement, there us a Big Sam.

In order

What is he asking them to do which is so difficult that 4 months on he still cannot get them to do it?

See above

Not sure what point you are even trying to make on this sorry.

Didnt Jedinak play against Wolves

The balance definitely isnt right, its called building a team and not just sign all the best players and stick them on the pitch

Definitely right on this one, but wouldnt they be better served playing in a settled formation with the same players rather than changes for every game?

[AVFCDAN]

13 minutes ago, TRO said:

He had a 41% win rate in his formative games with us, so he can do it.

Not sure that's true. New manager bounce is quite possible and happens frequently.

Its a lot more realistic to judge him on our form now after 20 games, yes its still relatively early days but if he doesn't know what the job requires and what needs to be changed now to turn us around then he's not the man for job imo.

[DaveAV1]

1 minute ago, TRO said:

Problem is Dave in our position any mistake we make is highlighted due to the amount of change.

I agree with Gk but against Spurs he looked as competent as anything I have seen in recent years.

The DM I think , was an error.

I think the hoofball, is a by product of Jedinak not playing, that Hourihane and Lansbury can't roam free further up field.

I don't entirely disagree with that TRO, but we could have bought DM and CM and perhaps done without Thor. I know this may not be popular but leaving Westwood at the club for a little longer would have at least left some familiarity in midfield. At Spurs I agree Johnstone looked pretty competent, but such an inexperienced GK is always a risk. 

Buying a new midfield and not involving them in the game has nothing to do with gelling and is now contributing to Hogan's ineffectiveness as he just doesn't get the ball. The poor bloke will probably crack open a bottle of bubbly when he gets a decent pass! Gestede was more suited to hoof ball. 

While im at it, why did he play Taylor when we needed wing backs and then bring Amavi back into a back 4. Surely despite Amavi's recent defensive woes he was more suited to the Ipswich game?

[Stevo985]

49 minutes ago, DaveAV1 said:

but then decided to bypass them with hoof football.

I take issue with this.

Not because it's not happening, we do hoof it too much.

But at the insinuation that Bruce is instructing the team to bypass the midfield and hoof it to the forwards.

his fault here is not getting the team to play the way he wants them to. I highly doubt he is instructing his players to play hoof ball. it's just a product of a lack of movement and options.

[weedman]

3 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

his fault here is not getting the team to play the way he wants them to. I highly doubt he is instructing his players to play hoof ball. it's just a product of a lack of movement and options.

And that itself is a byproduct of the players not yet being a team. The only way to resolve that is for them to play and train together consistently. Changing the manager changes the training and they would have to start "gelling" and getting to know each others game all over again. It's a painful process, but one we have to go through whether we have Bruce or anyone else in charge, and Bruce has at least proven he is capable of doing this for multiple clubs over his career, most of the other candidates I've seen here haven't

[TRO]

1 hour ago, terrytini said:

I asked a while ago and you replied saying "come on Terry you are better than that ".....what is it you are seeing that makes you so sure ' he will sort it' and other variations ?

You seem totally convinced he had the answers but bas d on what ?

1. I think missing Jedinak has a more profound effect on the team than many admit to.

2. He has successfully done this 4 times.

3. I think he knows this league intimately, but results at present are not reflecting that.

4. I have watched many of his previous teams to know he can fix this.

5. I am experienced enough as a fan to know that, (with the level of demise to cure) so many changes at one time takes one hell of a gelling process.....usually one or two come in and you still have to blend them......remember Ken McNaught 20 games, before we seen anything, but we accepted that because the rest of the team temporarily carried him.....we have too much transition to do that at present.

6. I think just about the whole of football know that SB is competent, maybe not a pep or a Jose.....but competent.

7. The very things in the players individual flaws at present, I have never seen in Steve Bruce teams, so I know it is not typical of anything he has been associated with......yes Terry, I was there when his Blues teams ably assisted by Mr savage, so regularly mugged us and ground out results, when we arguably had better teams.

8. It is so much easier to cut and run as opposed to stop and fight.I think we all have to grow some balls and fight our way through this.....The fans are great and have endured great frustration and as Mark has said, no one can blame anyone for frustration.

I know my argument is there to be shot down.....because I do not have the luxury of the results to make my plea plausible.....but I stay with it.....Keep Steve Bruce....IT will turn for the better.

I do believe that.

Edited February 16, 2017 by TRO

[DaveAV1]

1 minute ago, Stevo985 said:

I take issue with this.

Not because it's not happening, we do hoof it too much.

But at the insinuation that Bruce is instructing the team to bypass the midfield and hoof it to the forwards.

his fault here is not getting the team to play the way he wants them to. I highly doubt he is instructing his players to play hoof ball. it's just a product of a lack of movement and options.

I accept that teams that lack confidence do tend to go for the hoof. Movement isn't great either, but Hogan has been making great runs so we need to get it to the players who can find him, the principle one being Lansbury who is playing too deep because he didn't strengthen at DM. Either way hoofing is A problem and I suppose unless we're at BMH watching training we don't know who the fault lies with. 

[Stevo985]

I'm not taking the fault away from bruce. He's the manager so it's his fault.

I'm just distinguishing between it being his fault, and him specifically asking them to do it. I don't believe it's the latter.