StefanAVFC Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 2 minutes ago, bickster said: If the mood of the country changed, it would be absolutely democratic to hold another referendum. It's your idea that once something's been decided, that's it, no going back regardless, that is anti-democratic. It would also be democratic to give the people the final say on the deal that gets/doesn't get done, that should absolutely go to another referendum. Again to not offer the people that choice would be undemocratic Yep, the idea that changing your mind is anti-democratic is maddening. May as well never hold elections again. And pre-empting the 'time frame' argument, by the time we reach the end of the article 50 negotiating period, it will be 3 years on from the vote. More than enough time for the minuscule public opinion shift that would need to happen for us to remain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted June 19, 2017 Moderator Share Posted June 19, 2017 1 minute ago, magnkarl said: I would say that a referendum on the deal we make with EU would be more of a democratic way of handling this going forward. The people decided what to do with EU - now we need to get the power to decide what terms we negotiate. No that's silly, it can't work that way it's not pragmatic. But a referendum on the final deal, absolutely Two part question Accept Deal yes / No If deal is rejected - stay in or leave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted June 19, 2017 Moderator Share Posted June 19, 2017 2 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said: Yep, the idea that changing your mind is anti-democratic is maddening. May as well never hold elections again. And pre-empting the 'time frame' argument, by the time we reach the end of the article 50 negotiating period, it will be 3 years on from the vote. More than enough time for the minuscule public opinion shift that would need to happen for us to remain. And an actually more informed decision being as we'll know what the future holds, not some nebulous crap like the last referendum 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 (edited) 3 minutes ago, bickster said: No that's silly, it can't work that way it's not pragmatic. But a referendum on the final deal, absolutely Two part question Accept Deal yes / No If deal is rejected - stay in or leave Good point - I like it. Though I'm not sure if I would be so entused with another two referendums with Boris/Farage vs Corbyn/Abbott/DUP/SNP. I'm already on pretty strong blood thinners. My point is still there though. The EU are in dire need of reform, or else it's just a matter of time before someone else leaves. It's too cumbersome, too unpopular with almost 40% of the EU population. I like the concept of EU but it has to move with the times and roll with the punches. Some things have been handled in a very bad way lately. It's weird how this Luxembourg thing hasn't reached the UK press yet when it's plastered all over the press in Germany. Edited June 19, 2017 by magnkarl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted June 19, 2017 Moderator Share Posted June 19, 2017 1 minute ago, magnkarl said: Good point - I like it. Though I'm not sure if I would be so entused with another two referendums with Boris/Farage vs Corbyn/Abbott/DUP/SNP. I'm already on pretty strong blood thinners. My point is still there though. The EU are in dire need of reform, or else it's just a matter of time before someone else leaves. It's too cumbersome, too unpopular with almost 40% of the EU population. I like the concept of EU but it has to move with the times and roll with the punches. Some things have been handled in a very bad way lately. It's weird how this Luxembourg thing hasn't reached the UK press yet when it's plastered all over the press in Germany. You can't reform the EU when you aren't in the EU 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 Just now, bickster said: You can't reform the EU when you aren't in the EU Neither can the member states according to the skeptics in the union. Germany, Belgium, Luxembourg and France seem to have a much bigger impact on its policies than we ever had. The EU should have taken the hint when Brexit happened - but they are still arguing over what Hungary is proposing. When someone tries to say anything negative they get shouted down by a very strong bloc of MEP's in Brussels - it feels a bit like the senate in Star Wars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrenm Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 I still disagree that current Labour are hard left. Their manifesto is just left of centre. It's definitely centrist though. Nobody is suggesting forced distribution of wealth, or every public service nationalised. We've just been subject to gradual shift right for a while so anything left leaning looks very left. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enda Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 37 minutes ago, magnkarl said: If the UK were to do what Junker put into system in Luxembourg we'd face extreme consequences. "Extreme consequences". Like what? Name one extreme consequence. Just one. You can't, because the EU has *absolutely zero* power over member-states' corporate tax regimes. None. Your prose is eloquent but your post is full of hot air and just ranting. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enda Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 5 minutes ago, magnkarl said: Neither can the member states according to the skeptics in the union. Germany, Belgium, Luxembourg and France seem to have a much bigger impact on its policies than we ever had. The EU should have taken the hint when Brexit happened - but they are still arguing over what Hungary is proposing. When someone tries to say anything negative they get shouted down by a very strong bloc of MEP's in Brussels - it feels a bit like the senate in Star Wars. Hungary is preventing the free movement of people within the union, and shutting down universities that are critical of the current government. Getting shouted down by a strong bloc of democratically elected people. Heaven forbid. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 8 minutes ago, Enda said: "Extreme consequences". Like what? Name one extreme consequence. Just one. You can't, because the EU has *absolutely zero* power over member-states' corporate tax regimes. None.... The EU has a tax policy, everyone mostly follow that policy, except for the country of one of the leaders of the EU. No that's fine. So what you're saying is that EU doesn't really have any power over any member states? Why are we even going to negotiations then. They sure have enough power when they can withdraw your membership of the free trade zone if you're a country like Switzerland or Norway. But since it's Luxembourg it's fine. Nothing to see here - just some average systematic tax fraud from the EU's President. Quick - push it under the rug and let's not talk about how this implicates the fact that other countries' markets who could have had workplaces, tax and achieved growth didn't get any because Luxembourg broke international financial law. Move along people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enda Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 Just now, magnkarl said: The EU has a tax policy, everyone mostly follow that policy, except for the country of one of the leaders of the EU. No that's fine. This is evasive nonsense. Yes, the EU has a tax policy. It's called VAT of at least 15%. Nothing on corporate or income taxes. That's the competence of the member states. Again, I'm asking you name me one "extreme consequence" from the EU if the UK lowered its corporate tax rate to 0%. Just one will do. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enda Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 3 minutes ago, magnkarl said: Why are we even going to negotiations then Because we Europeans would like to continue having the UK as part of the open skies agreement so we can all fly to each other without much hassle, but we need to make sure you're not going to privatise air traffic control first. And we'd like to have free trade in poultry with you too, but need to make sure you're not using chlorine to wash your chickens. And we'd like to figure out how we can avoid a border in Northern Ireland, but need to make sure you're not going to use that as a round-about way to get your Chinese TVs you got in that hypothetical free trade deal into the single market via Dublin. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 1 minute ago, Enda said: This is evasive nonsense. Yes, the EU has a tax policy. It's called VAT of at least 15%. Nothing on corporate or income taxes. That's the competence of the member states. Again, I'm asking you name me one "extreme consequence" from the EU if the UK lowered its corporate tax rate to 0%. Just one will do. The only punishment EU has ever dished out is sanctions. This is the only moment in time where the EU have ever had to consider it internally so I guess your argument is as good as mine. We'll see if they decide to punish Junker/Luxembourg now or if Orban will have any consequences. If they decide to punish Orban they need to also punish Luxembourg. I get why people in Frankfurt are angry when the people who put EU law in system have also prospered extremely for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enda Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 Just now, magnkarl said: The only punishment EU has ever dished out is sanctions. This is the only moment in time where the EU have ever had to consider it internally so I guess your argument is as good as mine. We'll see if they decide to punish Junker/Luxembourg now or if Orban will have any consequences. If they decide to punish Orban they need to also punish Luxembourg. I get why people in Frankfurt are angry when the people who put EU law in system have also prospered extremely for it. Again, I'm asking you name me one "extreme consequence" from the EU if the UK lowered its corporate tax rate to 0%. Just one will do. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Enda said: Again, I'm asking you name me one "extreme consequence" from the EU if the UK lowered its corporate tax rate to 0%. Just one will do. As of now, nothing. We're leaving the EU and have no obligation to subscribe to any laws that are made from now on. If you asked me what they will do to Luxembourg on the account of these last revelations about Junker I'd probably say that they should revise their fair financial agreements and make all states follow them. There should also be more contributions coming from Luxembourg on the account of lost tax in other countries. Here's the story in English for anyone interested. The German version is a lot more strongly worded. https://www.cchdaily.co.uk/eu-chief-juncker-denies-involvement-luxembourg-tax-deals Quote EU chief Jean-Claude Juncker was forced to defend his position over Luxembourg sweetheart tax deals with multinationals, denying any involvement in the arrangements during his time in government, at a European parliament PANA committee hearing into tax evasion Essentially he's saying he had no involvement in these deals even though he was both financial minister and prime minister in the country at the time. It reeks. Edited June 19, 2017 by magnkarl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post bickster Posted June 19, 2017 Moderator Popular Post Share Posted June 19, 2017 So it's EU 1 - 0 UK The tough negotiating stance has begun... caved in on day one. The parallel Trade / Divorce talks won't be happening. Divorce first, trade later. Just like the EU and most people with half an ounce of common sense said it would be. That tough stance is paying dividends straight from the kick off A big lie exposed on day 1! 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post ml1dch Posted June 19, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted June 19, 2017 40 minutes ago, bickster said: So it's EU 1 - 0 UK The tough negotiating stance has begun... caved in on day one. The parallel Trade / Divorce talks won't be happening. Divorce first, trade later. Just like the EU and most people with half an ounce of common sense said it would be. That tough stance is paying dividends straight from the kick off A big lie exposed on day 1! Nah, you must have just misunderstood it. You have no idea how strong our position really is. We'll turn up, tell them what's what on day one, mumble something that we don't really understand about trade deficits and Prosecco that we read on Facebook and they'll cave. If they don't then it'll be disaster, so they'll definitely cave. Definitely. They need us more than we need them after all. 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PompeyVillan Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 A bit like anyone with sense knew the £350 mil NHS claims were false, this pretence that we'll batter the door down, shout at the pittyful Europeans for a bit, then sail back victorious, has already been dropped. Anyway, I thought Theresa May was going over the be 'bloody difficult' to the Germans herself, in person? That's why all the old people voted for her. Turns out she's still bent over a barrell in Belfast, whilst her kingdom burns before her eyes and the peasents revolt. Not quite the 'Strong and Stable' she had in mind, I should imagine. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicho Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 I'm past caring with these negotiations. i have no idea what people voted for and I have no idea what they are trying to negotiate. "I've been very clear, I want the best possible Brexit" means **** all. are we just trying to negotiate our current position without all of those pesky immigrants and not having to pay in? I feel the best Brexit is the conditions we have now, we are not getting that so that's a bad Brexit and Theresa should just come back home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 The UK government doesn't appear to know what it wants from the negotiations either. It is going to be a train wreck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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