ml1dch Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 6 minutes ago, Genie said: So if Boris is found to be acting unlawfully will he get a punishment? It seems like when politicians break the law they are allowed to reverse the act and that is that. In English law there is a difference between illegal and unlawful. Illegal means a law prohibits something, unlawful means that something is not recognised in law so has no legal effect. So no, there will have been no crime committed to result in a punishment. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desensitized43 Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 15 minutes ago, Genie said: So if Boris is found to be acting unlawfully will he get a punishment? It seems like when politicians break the law they are allowed to reverse the act and that is that. If I rob a bank and get caught, will they let me off if I return the money? I suppose there's a distiction between acting unlawfully and acting illegally. It's unlawful to give untrue advice to the queen which she then acts on and makes those actions void, but it's not illegal to lie to the queen. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 9 hours ago, jackbauer24 said: To be in charge of, say Education, you need to know about Education. MPs should be qualified in the area they lead - to know that industry. It's only politics where the boss can one week be in charge of Nuclear Weapons and the next week be caring about whether 5 year old should know their phonics. It's ridiculous when you think about it. i wrote something similar maybe 10 years ago in a thread similar to this and I’m fairly sure nearly everyone was against the idea , mind you the bolitics threads were more akin to a round of “i couldn’t disagree more “ back then so it might just have been people trying to win points 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyrusr Posted September 24, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted September 24, 2019 17 minutes ago, Genie said: So if Boris is found to be acting unlawfully will he get a punishment? It seems like when politicians break the law they are allowed to reverse the act and that is that. If I rob a bank and get caught, will they let me off if I return the money? If the Court find that Johnson/Government has actually unlawfully it will likely order them rectify this and bring it back to square one i.e. recall parliament one way or another. If he/they ignore that they could be found to be in contempt of court and fined and/or imprisoned; that is only when it becomes a criminal offence. They have said that they would follow the Court's direction but are trying to be coy about what they want to do and everyone seeing through it... Popcorn at the ready... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amsterdam_Neil_D Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 33 minutes ago, Genie said: If I rob a bank and get caught, will they let me off if I return the money? More likely bail you out to the tune of billions of quid and pat you on the head and make the customers of the bank pay for it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fightoffyour Posted September 24, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted September 24, 2019 49 minutes ago, Dr_Pangloss said: Depends on whether you own/ run the bank or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted September 24, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted September 24, 2019 (edited) 10 hours ago, jackbauer24 said: To be in charge of, say Education, you need to know about Education. MPs should be qualified in the area they lead - to know that industry. It's only politics where the boss can one week be in charge of Nuclear Weapons and the next week be caring about whether 5 year old should know their phonics. It's ridiculous when you think about it. Quote JONATHON GATEHOUSE The best qualified cabinet — since all the other ones Does it matter that a doctor now heads up the Health ministry, while a lawyer runs Justice? We checked the history books to find out. Nov 04, 2015 Jonathon Gatehouse Justin Trudeau is sworn-in as Canada's 23rd prime minister during a ceremony at Rideau Hall in Ottawa November 4, 2015. (Chris Wattie/Reuters) Justin Trudeau is sworn-in as Canada’s 23rd prime minister during a ceremony at Rideau Hall in Ottawa November 4, 2015. (Chris Wattie/Reuters) Beauty, it is said, is in the eye of the beholder. So too are the qualifications that mark a member of Parliament as “cabinet material.” Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has had to balance a lot of considerations in naming his new ministers. Along with his explicit promises of gender parity, generational change and having an executive team that “looks like Canada,” there are the political imperatives like regional representation, a French-English balance, and past favours and service that needs to be rewarded. His 30 picks—15 women and 15 men (the PM is the 31st cabinet member)—seem to hit all those notes, with a mix of experienced veterans (Ralph Goodale, Stéphane Dion, Scott Brison, Carolyn Bennett), rising party stars (Chrystia Freeland, Jody Wilson-Raybould, Mélanie Joly) and fresh, young unknowns (Bardish Chagger, Maryam Monsef.) The fact that thousands of people actually packed the grounds outside Rideau Hall to watch large TV screens broadcasting the swearing-in ceremony of a Canadian federal cabinet—an event that even those being given their ministerial cars are at best ambivalent about—speaks to the public’s desire for change. There is something dangerously close to excitement (or maybe it’s giddiness) about the promise of a new, cuddlier, less-prickish type of government in Ottawa. And the plaudits for his selections are already rolling in. Many seem to be based off the assumption that ministerial competence might be related to past employment experience. Jane Philpott, the minister of health, is a doctor! Kirsty Duncan, minister of science, is a scientist! Marie-Claude Bibeau, now in charge of International Development, once worked for CIDA! Surely, to some extent, that will prove to be true. Bill Morneau, the new finance minister, should be well served by his Bay Street experience. Ditto for Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan, a decorated former member of the Canadian Forces and Afghan vet. And Carla Qualtrough, a swimmer and three-time Paralympic medallist, seems well-qualified to run both Sports and Persons with Disabilities. But to suggest that this somehow sets Trudeau’s cabinet apart from all the others that have come before is just wrong. The team that Stephen Harper named when he won his majority in 2011 boasted at least six ministers who had direct and relevant experience to their portfolios. They included Jim Flaherty, who had been Ontario’s minister of finance before moving to Ottawa in the same capacity; Rob Nicholson, a lawyer who was both the attorney-general and the minister of justice; Gerry Ritz, a farmer turned agriculture minister; and even Harper himself, an economist by trade, overseeing a government whose greatest priority was the economy. Paul Martin’s first cabinet had seemingly well-suited picks like David Anderson, an environmental consultant, was minister of the environment, and Irwin Cotler and Anne McLellan, both former law professors, were appointed as minister of justice and solicitor general, respectively. Jean Chrétien tapped experienced businessman Paul Martin to be his minister of finance, diplomat Roy MacLaren to be his minister of international trade, and lawyers Allan Rock and Herb Gray for the Justice and solicitor general posts. And by the same admittedly subjective standards, Brian Mulroney’s first cabinet should have been the best qualified of all with nine clean fits. They included John Wise, a dairy farmer who took charge of agriculture, Frank Oberle, a former logger who was in charge of forestry, Joe Clark, a former prime minister in the External Affairs portfolio, George Hees, a Second World War hero looking after the interests of veterans, and Don Mazankowski, a former auto dealer as minister of transport. But honestly, it all doesn’t mean much. Like the fine print says, past performance is not a reliable indicator of future outcomes. Julian Fantino, who ably headed up both the Toronto Police Service and the Ontario Provincial Police, was a cabinet disaster at Veterans’ Affairs. Gordon O’Connor, a former brigadier general, couldn’t cut it at Defence. Brian Tobin—a former journalist, for God’s sake!—rode his stunts and success at Fisheries to a job as premier of Newfoundland. And who is to say that Jim Carr, a former oboeist with the Winnipeg Symphony Orchestra, won’t be the best natural resources minister Canada has ever had? Change has come to Ottawa. Maybe not so much around the cabinet table, but at least at its head. After 15 lawyers, three journalists, two civil servants, a doctor and an economist, the new Prime Minister is the first to list his occupation as teacher. Stephen Harper’s Conservatives spent years and millions of dollars trying to plant the idea that Justin Trudeau’s thin resumé meant he “wasn’t up to the job.” Voters disagreed. Starting today, we all get to find out. Maclean's Edited September 24, 2019 by mjmooney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 1 hour ago, Genie said: So if Boris is found to be acting unlawfully will he get a punishment? It seems like when politicians break the law they are allowed to reverse the act and that is that. If I rob a bank and get caught, will they let me off if I return the money? No, he won't. Unlawful does not necessarily mean criminal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 Unanimous verdict. Justiciable. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 Sounds like they're going to rule it unlawful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyrusr Posted September 24, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted September 24, 2019 1 minute ago, snowychap said: Unanimous verdict. Justiciable. The unanimous verdict is big. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 2 minutes ago, snowychap said: Unanimous verdict. Justiciable. Now wait for them to decide that it is justiciable, but in this case fine and proper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 1 minute ago, ml1dch said: Now wait for them to decide that it is justiciable, but in this case fine and proper. Nope - unlawful. Now for the remedy... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 Parliament has not been prorogued. The commissioners 'walked in as with a blank piece of paper'. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desensitized43 Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 Wow. That's massive. Surely Johnson and Rees-Mogg both have to resign now? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyrusr Posted September 24, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted September 24, 2019 1 minute ago, snowychap said: Parliament has not been prorogued. The commissioners 'walked in as with a blank piece of paper'. Meet as soon as possible. No step necessary but Johnson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 1 minute ago, desensitized43 said: Wow. That's massive. Surely Johnson and Rees-Mogg both have to resign now? Expect a new prorogation announcement within the next couple of days. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 Just now, cyrusr said: Meet as soon as possible. No step necessary but Johnson. Yep. It'll be interesting to see the next steps. I owe you an apology for my skepticism about the intervention of the courts earlier in the thread! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Pangloss Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 1 hour ago, Genie said: Pretty sure I'd still be jailed. William K Black's book 'The best way to rob a bank is to own one' is pretty illuminating, looking at the savings and loans crisis in the 1980s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desensitized43 Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 Just now, snowychap said: Expect a new prorogation announcement within the next couple of days. They can't prorogue if it has the effect of restricting parliaments ability to hold the government to account...for whatever reason. That's the judgement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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