blandy Posted September 20, 2019 Author Moderator Share Posted September 20, 2019 2 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: If you believe the bolded part - and of course you might be right - then it's hard to see what relevance any of the rest of it has. Us posting on here has no relevance to anything. Like you I desperately want the tories out, I despise what they've done and do. I'm gutted that there isn't a competent opposition, a government in waiting, if you like. Beyond that the relvance is absolutely nil, from my perspective, just a chat and exchange of opinions with a strong Labour supporter. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted September 20, 2019 Share Posted September 20, 2019 3 minutes ago, blandy said: No, not on my word salad - an internet post on a football message board typed out in a rush is not meant to be something Labour could have "run on". Not that they were "running" on what they did anyway, were they? It's my thought about where I think they went wrong but trying to be constructive at least in saying what they could have done differently. Political parties need positions to run on. During an election, leaders get asked lots and lots and lots of questions. You have to have an actual proposition, a plan of action. As best I can tell, your plan of action for Labour would have been to say 'vote for us, and we'll ask the Tories to sit down with us and work it out together'. It wouldn't have exactly been a great incentive to vote Labour, would it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted September 20, 2019 Share Posted September 20, 2019 3 minutes ago, blandy said: a strong Labour supporter. I feel like I need to address this. I am only 'a strong Labour supporter' in as much as I want an end to austerity and economic mismanagement of this country. I became an adult at the outset of the Iraq War, and I have spent as much of my life voting against Labour, and vigorously hating them, as I have voting for them. My 'strong support' will last precisely as long as they have the policies I see as best. Apart from that, the main difference between me and other posters is that I appear to be the only poster who believes that it would have made very little difference at all to Labour's post-Brexit strategy who their leader was. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodgyknees Posted September 20, 2019 Share Posted September 20, 2019 1 hour ago, HanoiVillan said: I feel like I need to address this. I am only 'a strong Labour supporter' in as much as I want an end to austerity and economic mismanagement of this country. I became an adult at the outset of the Iraq War, and I have spent as much of my life voting against Labour, and vigorously hating them, as I have voting for them. My 'strong support' will last precisely as long as they have the policies I see as best. Apart from that, the main difference between me and other posters is that I appear to be the only poster who believes that it would have made very little difference at all to Labour's post-Brexit strategy who their leader was. Similar to me. I was Labour till Iraq war, then I had my party membership removed when I made some anti-War posts about Blair, and now I will vote Labour again if I can be sure it will be the end of austerity. I will never vote Lib Dems or Tory. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted September 20, 2019 Author Moderator Share Posted September 20, 2019 1 hour ago, HanoiVillan said: As best I can tell, your plan of action for Labour would have been to say 'vote for us, and we'll ask the Tories to sit down with us and work it out together'. It wouldn't have exactly been a great incentive to vote Labour, would it. No, that's not it at all. I'm pushed for time but it would have been more like this. Trigger A50 vote - the opposite of what Corbyn did - whip against (not for) supporting the tories on that. It was obvious at the time and even clearer now that triggering A50 was monumentally stupid, without knowing what we wanted. Explain why. At the time, like now, the tories were frothing with Brexity lust for beasting foreigners and destroying rights and protections. Stand up for principles when it matters, not when it's a nice soundbite. I could go on from there, but probably going back and looking at old posts would do the same trick. gtg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lapal_fan Posted September 20, 2019 Share Posted September 20, 2019 One of the biggest issues with the whole thing is that the country is 52% leave, 48% remain. Of the leavers, not all of them want "no deal" Of the remainers, some of them think "well we lost, so we must do it for democracy" So it's not just 52-48 anymore. It's more like 10-20-15-5-10-20-20. Who's going to win an election when people are so divided? More hung-parliaments? We've done really well out of them.. There is no majority, so none of the opposition will tie their flag to a direction they want to take their parties in. Labour are absolutely rudderless, Corbyn is historically a leaver, is still a little bit of a leaver because he's already said he'd invoke Article 50, but the majority of the people giving him money want him to become a remainer. The country is **** man. And when people are divided, it gives far right leaning politics a great platform to say "follow us! We used to be great! We can be great again! We need to look after ourselves!" which then leads to a rhetoric of "Us vs Them", "England vs Europe", "England vs Immigrants", "England vs people who rely on benefits!" - it leads to poison. We've been conditioned to not like people who we perceive to "take" from us. From news outlets (Sun, Daily Mail and other red tops) to social media becoming increasingly more robotic. When the reality is this, it's the people at the very top, who have the wealth to help others, whether that be giving decent pay rises to afford the increasing costs of living, to giving employees more time off, sick pay etc, to paying tax on their earnings like the rest of us, who work in the companies these rich people own (in order to make them more wealthy). They are the problem. But the average joe, who feels in charge of his own life and destiny don't see it, because we're constantly told it's the people "beneath us" who are taking from "us". I'm not even talking about the people who earn good money in London, they're just sucking the jugs of the truly wealthy people and spreading whatever they are told to spread. Deep innit? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted September 20, 2019 Share Posted September 20, 2019 8 minutes ago, blandy said: No, that's not it at all. I'm pushed for time but it would have been more like this. Trigger A50 vote - the opposite of what Corbyn did - whip against (not for) supporting the tories on that. It was obvious at the time and even clearer now that triggering A50 was monumentally stupid, without knowing what we wanted. Explain why. At the time, like now, the tories were frothing with Brexity lust for beasting foreigners and destroying rights and protections. Stand up for principles when it matters, not when it's a nice soundbite. I could go on from there, but probably going back and looking at old posts would do the same trick. gtg. Yes, I don't think you need bother (unless you want to of course). We see the matter in such completely different ways that we're just going to talk past each other. Not to worry; enjoy your weekend! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted September 20, 2019 Moderator Share Posted September 20, 2019 2 minutes ago, lapal_fan said: One of the biggest issues with the whole thing is that the country is 52% leave, 48% remain Is it? It was on a particular day in 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seat68 Posted September 20, 2019 Share Posted September 20, 2019 2 minutes ago, lapal_fan said: One of the biggest issues with the whole thing is that the country is 52% leave, 48% remain. Its a minor point, but its an error that Leave keep repeating, its not the country, its of the people that voted. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted September 20, 2019 Moderator Share Posted September 20, 2019 18 minutes ago, lapal_fan said: More hung-parliaments? We've done really well out of them.. Its not necessarily a bad thing, if there was a government, they might be in danger of doing something 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lapal_fan Posted September 20, 2019 Share Posted September 20, 2019 22 minutes ago, bickster said: Is it? It was on a particular day in 2016 "So it's not just 52-48 anymore. It's more like 10-20-15-5-10-20-20." I know 22 minutes ago, Seat68 said: Its a minor point, but its an error that Leave keep repeating, its not the country, its of the people that voted. Can't cover absolutely every point on the subject, but I'd thought that was known without saying Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Genie Posted September 20, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted September 20, 2019 I was remain at the point of voting, but then when leave won I thought, oh well, I'll try and get behind it and focus on the positives that leaving brings. As it turns out there's actually none. Its either bad, very bad, Armageddon, or if a strong backing wind and every egg becomes a chicken we might just about get back to a similar-ish place where we are today in about 20 years time. Its madness. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lapal_fan Posted September 20, 2019 Share Posted September 20, 2019 8 minutes ago, Genie said: I was remain at the point of voting, but then when leave won I thought, oh well, I'll try and get behind it and focus on the positives that leaving brings. As it turns out there's actually none. Its either bad, very bad, Armageddon, or if a strong backing wind and every egg becomes a chicken we might just about get back to a similar-ish place where we are today in about 20 years time. Its madness. And all so David Cameron could win an election Whatta' guy! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted September 20, 2019 Share Posted September 20, 2019 Just now, lapal_fan said: And all so David Cameron could win an election Whatta' guy! I still don't really recall hearing anybody sell the case for being in the EU. Yet I can remember quite a lot of the arguments for leave. Says it all really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lapal_fan Posted September 20, 2019 Share Posted September 20, 2019 1 minute ago, Genie said: I still don't really recall hearing anybody sell the case for being in the EU. Yet I can remember quite a lot of the arguments for leave. Says it all really. George Osbourne just said the pound would collapse and we'd never recover and he'd have to do an emergency budget which would be catastrophic for everyone forever so we should all just trust David okthnxbye x x x 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted September 20, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted September 20, 2019 1 hour ago, Genie said: I still don't really recall hearing anybody sell the case for being in the EU. Yet I can remember quite a lot of the arguments for leave. Says it all really. It's always much more difficult to argue for the status quo. When people are feeling pissed off they tend to be attracted by anybody promising change - any change. Gotta be better than what we have now, right? Well, no, not right as it happens, but nobody likes to back down once they've nailed their colours to a particular mast. Even if the mast is on a sinking ship. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lapal_fan Posted September 20, 2019 Share Posted September 20, 2019 2 minutes ago, mjmooney said: It's always much more difficult to argue for the status quo. When people are feeling pissed off they tend to be attracted by anybody promising change - any change. Gotta be better than what we have now, right? Well, no, not right as it happens, but nobody likes to back down once they've nailed their colours to a particular mast. Even if the mast is on a sinking ship. It's why Birmingham City still exist 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted September 20, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted September 20, 2019 1 hour ago, Genie said: I still don't really recall hearing anybody sell the case for being in the EU. Yet I can remember quite a lot of the arguments for leave. Says it all really. as @mjmooney says it's difficult to argue for the status quo at the best of times, but when things are difficult it's even harder. Especially when that status quo has been made out to be the source of all ills for decades. But theres another problem. The EU is boring, complicated, requires understanding of various other boring complicated topics, and the most simple arguments FOR it are also the ones that don't exactly get the pulse racing and are easily undermined if you have an interesting relationship with the truth and know your audience isn't in the position to argue any different. Even now, after 3 years of this shit, it's still bloody hard to get anything through the sheer weight of bollocks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam-AVFC Posted September 20, 2019 Share Posted September 20, 2019 (edited) 21 minutes ago, mjmooney said: It's always much more difficult to argue for the status quo. When people are feeling pissed off they tend to be attracted by anybody promising change - any change. Gotta be better than what we have now, right? Well, no, not right as it happens, but nobody likes to back down once they've nailed their colours to a particular mast. Even if the mast is on a sinking ship. This is what frustrates me about people. I know more than one person who didn't have strong feelings either way before the vote, but ended up voting Leave as "I wouldn't bother going to vote if it was to keep something the same". Yes, that is an actual quote. Funnily enough they all regretted their vote within days of the result, but at least they got to feel part of something for a few hours! Edited September 20, 2019 by Sam-AVFC 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted September 20, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted September 20, 2019 25 minutes ago, lapal_fan said: It's why Birmingham City still exist That is actually true. Football loyalty is blind. Unfortunately, the Brexit schism has taken on the same "us and them", "we won, you lost", "nobody likes us and we don't care" tribalism. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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