Rodders Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/25/britain-cowed-brussels-jacob-rees-mogg-theresa-may-brexit-eurosceptic-mps Quote ... Meanwhile, Eurosceptic backbencher Jacob Rees-Mogg used a speech in Hampshire on Thursday to accuse the government of being “cowed” by Brussels in the Brexit talks. “For too long our negotiators seemed to have been cowed by the EU. Their approach seems to be that we must accept what the EU will allow us to do and build from there. This is no way to negotiate and it is no way for this country to behave,” he said. Rees-Mogg chairs the powerful European Research Group (ERG) of pro-Brexit Tory MPs, who are threatening to vote as a bloc against the government in the upcoming customs bill to prevent the government retaining the power to keep the UK in a customs union with the EU. He warned May and her cabinet colleagues against allowing Brexit to become “only a damage limitation exercise”. He argued: “The British people did not vote for that. They did not vote for the management of decline. They voted for hope and opportunity and politicians must now deliver it.” .... More drivel. what exactly does this idiot want? If one negotiating side has more cards than you, you have very limited options and bluff and bluster doesn't really get you very far, when the other side aren't idiots and also know it's bluff and bluster. You also can't go into a negotiating room and shout "we want hope, give us hope without any details of how to achieve it". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted January 26, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted January 26, 2018 17 minutes ago, Rodders said: More drivel. what exactly does this idiot want? Power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Xann Posted January 26, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted January 26, 2018 23 minutes ago, Rodders said: More drivel. what exactly does this idiot want? His head smashed in. 4 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 Did Arron Banks spend his tax windfall on the line-up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 It's just missing Mr Corbyn. Corbyn: no second referendum Quote Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn tells the BBC's Andrew Marr that Labour ........... rules out calls for a second referendum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrenm Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 3 hours ago, chrisp65 said: It's just missing Mr Corbyn. Corbyn: no second referendum Like everything he says with brexit, you have to look at the words carefully. They're not calling for one. Doesn't mean they won't support one, or in future they won't call for one. Everything's deliberately ambiguous and not absolute so can't be quoted in future as a 'but you said' Whether that's a good or a bad thing is individual opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted January 28, 2018 Author Moderator Share Posted January 28, 2018 36 minutes ago, darrenm said: They're not calling for one. Doesn't mean they won't support one, or in future they won't call for one. Everything's deliberately ambiguous and not absolute Not so. On the telly (also as per chris's link) Quote When pressed by Mr Marr, Mr Corbyn said: "We're not asking for a second referendum." Asked directly "and you're not going to?" he replied: "No." No is quite unambiguous. I get where you're coming from, but don't agree, Darren. Labour is split. Most of Labour wants to stay in the Single Market, if not the EU. Corbyn does not. They're fudging, hoping the tories mess sort of lets them get power, but IMO they are as bad on Europe, in terms of not being able to reach an agreed party position. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted January 28, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted January 28, 2018 (edited) As an aside, deliberate ambiguity only works for so long. Eventually people decide you can't trust anything being said because none of it has any worth. Do it for long enough and we get into boy crying wolf territory - nothing said on any topic is worth listening to. Labour need to tie their colours to the mast eventually. They won't, because they want power as Blandy notes and are hoping they can react to the Tories going pop, but they should. I'd have more faith in a party telling me their position than dancing around it hoping I don't notice. Edited January 28, 2018 by Chindie 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrenm Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 At the risk of being called an ambiguity apologist, isn't it good for the country if the government in waiting leaves as many options open as possible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted January 28, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted January 28, 2018 They aren't a government in waiting. This country likes to vote Tory. And I'd be happier voting for someone whose policies are at least clear, rather than the one that wants to win by nudging and winking then rolling back the nudge and denying the wink in an attempt to play politics better than someone intent on constant foot shooting. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 39 minutes ago, darrenm said: At the risk of being called an ambiguity apologist, isn't it good for the country if the government in waiting leaves as many options open as possible? Ruling out another referendum is some pretty shoddy politicking then, isn't it? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 53 minutes ago, darrenm said: isn't it good for the country if the government in waiting leaves as many options open as possible? There are a few things here. The opposition are not 'the government in waiting'. It's not a next cab on the rank situation. I have always had a great deal of sympathy with the stance of an opposition being that it is not up to them to come up with detailed, fully thought out policy in order to oppose the policy of government especially outside the electioneering part of an election cycle. This, though, doesn't equate to 'commit to nothing whatsoever lest you, your members, or the electorate want something different in a year or two years' time' If Labour party policy is to leave as many options open as possible then this itself should become their single policy and the one that they put forward. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meregreen Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 Offer a free vote in Parliament as to whether there should be another referendum. It really is an issue that should be beyond Party politicking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrenm Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, ml1dch said: Ruling out another referendum is some pretty shoddy politicking then, isn't it? But that's exactly what they haven't done by Corbyn using non-commital words above. Not asking for one is very different to ruling one out. There's also the temporal angle - 'we are not calling for one' implies the present situation. Seems pretty good politicking to me. 59 minutes ago, snowychap said: There are a few things here. The opposition are not 'the government in waiting'. It's not a next cab on the rank situation. I have always had a great deal of sympathy with the stance of an opposition being that it is not up to them to come up with detailed, fully thought out policy in order to oppose the policy of government especially outside the electioneering part of an election cycle. This, though, doesn't equate to 'commit to nothing whatsoever lest you, your members, or the electorate want something different in a year or two years' time' If Labour party policy is to leave as many options open as possible then this itself should become their single policy and the one that they put forward. The polls continue to shift in Labour's favour, May is about to face a leadership challenge, even if another GE doesn't get called before the fixed term, Labour are the next government. Isn't your final paragraph exactly what they are saying? By refusing to give details it implies flexibility? Edited January 28, 2018 by darrenm Freudian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 4 minutes ago, darrenm said: ... even if another GE doesn't get called before the fixed term, Labour are the next government. That is palpable nonsense. And arrogant, deluded nonsense, at that. For the sake of the Labour party you represent, I really hope that activists are not taking that attitude. Quote Isn't your final paragraph exactly what they are saying? By refusing to give details it implies flexibility? No. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted January 28, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted January 28, 2018 (edited) Arrogance is rarely a good look. Anyway... In Brexit need today Andrew Mitchell amongst others has been caught charging for 'advice' about Brexit. No conflicts there, nosiree. Edited January 28, 2018 by Chindie 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrenm Posted January 29, 2018 Share Posted January 29, 2018 1 hour ago, Chindie said: Arrogance is rarely a good look. I'm glad you agree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted January 29, 2018 Share Posted January 29, 2018 (edited) 42 minutes ago, darrenm said: 2 hours ago, Chindie said: Arrogance is rarely a good look. I'm glad you agree 2 hours ago, darrenm said: even if another GE doesn't get called before the fixed term, Labour are the next government Edited January 29, 2018 by snowychap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted January 29, 2018 Share Posted January 29, 2018 6 hours ago, darrenm said: The polls continue to shift in Labour's favour, May is about to face a leadership challenge, even if another GE doesn't get called before the fixed term, Labour are the next government. Darren, in the past you have mentioned that you are a comparatively recent convert to caring about politics passionately. I hope that's what's going on here, because you can't predict the results of an election four years before it happens. I don't know if you were that interested in British politics during the coalition, but Ed Miliband was frequently posting much bigger poll leads. At an analogous point during the coalition, ie end of January 2011, one Angus Reid poll gave the Tories 32% to Labour's 43%. And yet at the election in 2015, the Tories won a majority. Do I think Labour's chances of winning are greater than 50/50? Yes. But you can't say things like 'Labour are the next government', life isn't that predictable (and it does come across as a bit arrogant and very complacent). 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted January 29, 2018 Moderator Share Posted January 29, 2018 We're currently in a phase where Labour are about to lose credibility and votes imo. The country is moving in favour of remain, this is a consistent trend in the polls now. The Guardian published a poll the other day saying the country is massively in favour of a second referendum (this is still an outlier and does depend on how the question is phrased). Vladimir Illych Corbyn is against EU membership (always has been - its a construct of the capitalist system), if Labour wants to progress they need to dump him ASAP, he'll become more toxic as the days go by, the countries opinion is moving in the opposite direction to him on Europe, his party's membership has always been opposed to his opinion on the EU membership issue, as are the majority of the MPs. They all need to wake up, smell the Danish bacon and do the decent thing by putting the needs of the country above this little anachronistic love affair with the nice man with the beard and the cap. Right now they are the opposition and they aren't opposing the most lunatic and catastrophic decision this country has made in all of our lifetimes because the bloke at the top doesn't like it. His membership, his MPs, his backers the Unions all disagree with him. It's actually insane that he's still there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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