TrentVilla Posted November 22, 2016 Moderator Share Posted November 22, 2016 1 hour ago, Awol said: Ah yes, the Open Britain video. Please watch Andrew Neil take that Matthew McGrory and his video apart on the Sunday Politics - I thought blood sports were banned these days?! Another glorious example of post truth politics by this cheeky Remain chappie. Ouch. I think I saw the actual moment when his balls climbed back into his body and refused to come back out. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 6 minutes ago, TrentVilla said: Ouch. I think I saw the actual moment when his balls climbed back into his body and refused to come back out. It's a very silly technique. Pick one or two areas, research them intensively, practice full frontal assaults, test possible rebuttals and how you can overcome them, furnish the interviewer with lots of detailed references...like inviting somdone to play a game and then telling them when they turn up whether it will be rugby or draughts. It's all about making Neil look like Billy Big Bollocks, and not at all about deepening people's understanding of the issues. Pathetic. We deserve better than this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted November 22, 2016 Moderator Share Posted November 22, 2016 8 hours ago, peterms said: It's a very silly technique. Pick one or two areas, research them intensively, practice full frontal assaults, test possible rebuttals and how you can overcome them, furnish the interviewer with lots of detailed references...like inviting somdone to play a game and then telling them when they turn up whether it will be rugby or draughts. It's all about making Neil look like Billy Big Bollocks, and not at all about deepening people's understanding of the issues. Pathetic. We deserve better than this. I'm not sure I agree, I mean yes I agree with you in terms of the general premis of what you are saying and that it's fairly common. I just don't agree with your conclusions, I don't think it was about making Neil look big. I think it was about exposing the shallow and frankly deceitful approach take by this chap. He was caught bang to rights. I would hope that whatever people's perspective on this topic they would have had enough of seeing such BS and spin. Without a doubt this chap walked into a well prepared trap in which Neil was provided with his pray on a plate. That doesn't detract from the fact the chap was shown to be lacking in anything even remotely on nodding terms with integrity or balance. Neil took apart a guy masquerading as someone presenting a valid representation of one side of the debate and showed him for what he was. Does it deepen understanding? No but it shines a light on some of those wilfully places lies in way of it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 Our nation's embarrassment is there for all to see: Quote The British government has been given a blunt warning to stay out of the EU’s post-Brexit business by a senior leader in the European parliament, who lambasted Boris Johnson for his “unbelievable arrogance” and insisted Britain would have “no say any more” in the long-term future of Europe. Manfred Weber, the leader of the largest centre-right group in the European parliament, criticised the British foreign secretary for his support of Turkey’s EU membership, which has infuriated European politicians. The MEP spoke minutes after the European parliament’s chief Brexit negotiator, Guy Verhofstadt, said the UK may have only 14 months of proper negotiations to tie up its EU exit and pressed for talks to be completed by mid-2019. Manfred Weber described Johnson’s support for Ankara as ‘unbelievable’ and ‘a purely arrogant provocation" Johnson has irked many in Europe by offering to help Turkey join the EU despite Britain’s looming departure. After becoming foreign secretary he reverted to his support for Turkey’s EU hopes, after being accused of stoking prejudice during the referendum campaign by suggesting Turkish migrants would flood into the UK if Britain stayed in the EU... ...Meanwhile, Verhofstadt said the window for negotiations was “14 or 15 months”, once political processes were taken into account, shaving months off the two-year timetable the UK government is counting on. Davis described his meeting with Verhofstadt as “great fun” and denied having compared the MEP to Satan. What are these simple-minded children doing in our name? It is staggering that such people seem to be in control of our country. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 Quote Johnson has irked many in Europe by offering to help Turkey join the EU despite Britain’s looming departure. After becoming foreign secretary he reverted to his support for Turkey’s EU hopes, after being accused of stoking prejudice during the referendum campaign by suggesting Turkish migrants would flood into the UK if Britain stayed in the EU... After a big Leave campaign point, almost led by Johnson, was anti-Turkey's EU membership. My head hurts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 1 hour ago, Awol said: David Davies? Really?! David Davies: David Davis: 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brommy Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 There is nothing I can do to influence the negotiations in leaving the European Union, so I'm not stressing too much. Currently, I'm financially better off because of the referendum result but I accept that may change. Most of the 'leavers' I have spoken to after the result have accepted there may be a 'price to pay'. There is little to be gained in imposing trade tariffs so my guess is that after a period of grandstanding (mostly by the EU in an attempt to cement or paper over (depending on one's view of the future of the EU) the cracks created by the first large country to leave it's Union), there will be agreements in place that don't significantly damage the trade of the UK and the EU. Of course the finance markets will continue to be volatile but there always has been periods of volatility, so little change there. Facts will continue to be interpreted to support either side of the argument but as the years pass and decades pass, the UK's former membership of the Union will fade to a distant memory. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted November 22, 2016 Moderator Share Posted November 22, 2016 1 hour ago, peterms said: Our nation's embarrassment is there for all to see: What are these simple-minded children doing in our name? It is staggering that such people seem to be in control of our country. Applying a little pressure of their own I'd say. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 1 hour ago, peterms said: Our nation's embarrassment is there for all to see: What are these simple-minded children doing in our name? It is staggering that such people seem to be in control of our country. I'm not seeing where Johnson has stated he will help Turkey join the EU every news source I've read has Johnson saying " We may be leaving the European Union but we are not leaving Europe and Britain will help Turkey in any way." It it seemed to be directly in relation to the failed coup there and not anything to do with EU membership ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 38 minutes ago, brommy said: There is little to be gained in imposing trade tariffs And yet tariffs or trade restrictions continue to be imposed. Quote Applying the EU's understanding of protectionism, the total number of trade restrictions adopted by G20 members since 2008 reached 704 measures at the end of June 2014.That number was by 23.4% higher than the total in June 2013 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted November 23, 2016 Share Posted November 23, 2016 4 hours ago, ml1dch said: I'm not sure what the "Really?!" refers to. Whether you're questioning my assertion that he has that responsibility or whether he broadcast those views back in May. As for "nearly everyone I know..." I guess it goes to show the benefit of not living in a bubble of shared opinion. No sorry I'm not questioning you, I am stunned he was unaware. Perhaps he was thinking ahead to life post the eurozone... .. and yes, several very different overlapping bubbles socially but I was surprised by it. The few Remainers were all London based graduates and some family in the south east. Everyone I know north of Watford was for leave - which correlated pretty well with the result in the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted November 23, 2016 Share Posted November 23, 2016 3 hours ago, peterms said: Our nation's embarrassment is there for all to see: What are these simple-minded children doing in our name? It is staggering that such people seem to be in control of our country. Verhofstadht is an absolute ass clown über Federalist who will undoubtedly try to ensure anything approaching a good deal is scuppered in the EU Parliament. That said I don't think he gets to decide the length of negotiations on a whim. 9 months for the deal to be ratified in member state parliaments seems excessive. As for Boris & Turkey, it's clear Sultan Erdogan is taking his country to a place completely contrary to EU values and membership criteria. If Boris is saying these things about membership in the full knowledge it can't happen (even if he's a dummy his mandarins are not) perhaps he's making the right noises & looking to the future UK/Turkey bilateral relationship? At any rate I don't share your sense of embarrassment. The mainstream media broadly hold the view that leaving is a disaster. All coverage and interpretation of events are presented within that framework - which is the bit I genuinely find embarrassing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted November 23, 2016 Share Posted November 23, 2016 (edited) 6 hours ago, Awol said: No sorry I'm not questioning you, I am stunned he was unaware. Perhaps he was thinking ahead to life post the eurozone... These have been posted on here a couple of of times in the last six months or so, he doesn't seem to be talking about anything other than the plan immediately post-membership. Caveat - I appreciate that any half-competent six year-old can Photoshop somebody on Twitter saying anything that they want them to, but while my brief checks don't suggest that to be the case here, I don't rule it out. Just because it would be *so* breathtakingly ignorant for somebody in his position. Edited November 23, 2016 by ml1dch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted November 23, 2016 Share Posted November 23, 2016 8 hours ago, tonyh29 said: I'm not seeing where Johnson has stated he will help Turkey join the EU every news source I've read has Johnson saying " We may be leaving the European Union but we are not leaving Europe and Britain will help Turkey in any way." It it seemed to be directly in relation to the failed coup there and not anything to do with EU membership ? Quote The British foreign secretary, Boris Johnson, a former arch critic of the current Turkish leadership, sought to mend battered fences in a series of high level meetings on Tuesday, culminating in a pledge to be one of the strongest supporters of the country’s bid to become a member of the European Union. Speaking at a joint news conference with his Turkish counterpart, Mevlüt Çavuşoğlu, Johnson also said Turkey and Britain stood together against terrorism. He said his Turkish hosts had not brought up the controversy caused by a lewd poem he composed in which he referred to the Turkish president, Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, as a rocket polisher, and described the issue as trivia. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/27/boris-johnson-turkey-recep-tayyip-erdogan-lewd-poem-mevlut-cavusoglu-kurds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted November 23, 2016 Share Posted November 23, 2016 Ironically, the idea of Turkey joining the EU was one of the things leavers gave as a reason to leave. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted November 23, 2016 Moderator Share Posted November 23, 2016 11 hours ago, Awol said: While both sides were disingenuous I think Remain won the alarmist BS accolade by a country mile. Irrespective of which side was worse you raise a good point regarding the Remain campaign and one which is largely ignored. Their campaign perhaps would have been successful if they had focussed upon the positives of the EU, even as someone who voted to leave I recognise that it had some. I don't think it could have affected my vote but I think that it could have affected a lot of votes. But they didn't do this they came up with a list of at times quite ludicrous claims about how it would affect people. It was so transparent in its motivation you could almost imagine them writing a list of the things people were likely to care about, then plucking a number from the air and picking a date they were going to scaremonger about it. People saw through it or just didn't buy it and instead continued to see the EU as an enemy and that those defending it were those of wealth from London who represented the few not the many. The reasons that the Remain campaign failed to gain enough support were many but a key one was they empty rhetoric and down right lies and scaremongering which I think blew up in their face. One of the biggest mistakes they made was using celebrity supporters who I suspect voters saw as wealthy and far removed from their lives and the issue (real or otherwise) which they blamed on the EU. That was both insulting and a huge mistake. Only now the widely accepted version of events seems to be Leave ran a deceitful campaign while Remain tried and failed to present the 'facts'. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted November 23, 2016 Moderator Share Posted November 23, 2016 11 minutes ago, peterms said: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/27/boris-johnson-turkey-recep-tayyip-erdogan-lewd-poem-mevlut-cavusoglu-kurds I've only scan read it so apologies if I've missed something but does that article actually contain any quotes to support the claim he was talking about Turkey and membership of the EU? I couldn't see one. What I did note though was the reference (with a quote) about the prospect of signing a trade deal with Turkey outside the EU. That to me suggests he wasn't advocating their membership. There is a destination between Europe and the EU and I think that article fails to take account of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted November 23, 2016 Share Posted November 23, 2016 (edited) 52 minutes ago, peterms said: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/27/boris-johnson-turkey-recep-tayyip-erdogan-lewd-poem-mevlut-cavusoglu-kurds Still not seeing it though ?? Eery outlet seems to be saying that Johnson promised it but I still can't see a single quote to confirm that he actually did .... maybe it's Is like the Rudd thing where they didn't actually say something but everyone knew what she meant because although she didn't say it there was a secret briefing document that everyone saw (but can't actually produce) that confirms it in the link you've posted the only mention of it is here but that's not a quote from Johnson .... Quote Çelik also joked abouthe and Johnson having Ottoman ancestry. “We are both Ottomans. I had told him that it was important to pay visits to countries in which you have friends. He kept his promise. It means a great deal to us. The UK has always supported our EU membership bid,” he said.\quote] Edited November 23, 2016 by tonyh29 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted November 23, 2016 Share Posted November 23, 2016 3 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: Still not seeing it though ?? wvery outlet seems to be saying that Johnson promised it but I still can't see a single quote to confirm that he actually did in the link you've posted the only mention of it is here "Britain will remain committed to helping Turkey's path to accession". Video clip of press conference here (can't seem to copy the video). Which is why all the papers that covered it commented on this commitment to helping Turkey join, even if they didn't quote the exact words. So not just expressing a personal preference, but committing this country to helping Turkey join. I can see why other EU countries would be annoyed. And on the back of raising fears about millions of Turks being able to come into the UK if we remained members, the hypocrisy is staggering. Whoever decided to help him down from that zip wire has a lot to answer for. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted November 23, 2016 Share Posted November 23, 2016 Yes, who would have thought that when Mr X spends 6 months very loudly telling everybody that Eventuality A would be a disaster for his country, and then decides to start supporting Eventuality A for everyone else's country, that people in those other countries might get a tiny bit upset. We shouldn't be expressing any opinion on the future membership of the EU. We're leaving, remember? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts