The now-enacted will of (some of) the people

[HanoiVillan]

7 hours ago, BOF said:

And that's what will happen.  You will stay in the EU, but you will do enough so that the 'Leave' brigade get something for their vote.  Then everyone can say they won.  The 'Remain' won because you remained.  The 'Leave' get to say they won because they get to keep the status quo while claiming to have effected change based on whatever hat-tip concession is thrown in their general direction.  This will be modern democracy at work.  The illusion of choice played out by thoroughly reprehensible individuals squirming out of tricky questions for the next year like the greased up pigs that they are.

To be honest, I'd rather people didn't drive the country's economy off a cliff on a point of principle. 

Remaining in the EEA is a next-best solution. It would likely prevent thousands of job losses, pension fund shortfalls and whatever else. I wouldn't call a politician trying to salvage a decent solution from a terrible situation a 'greased up pig'. 

[StefanAVFC]

If we join the EEA, then this whole referendum was a total waste of time.

[HanoiVillan]

5 hours ago, MakemineVanilla said:

There is a surprising parallel between England's exit from the European Championships and the UK's exit from the EU.

The process of getting over both will follow the same course.

1) Heads roll: Cameron resigns and Hodgson resigns.

2)The process then starts, of slagging off all those who were involved in the disappointing result: every England player gets slagged off (Sterling, Hart, Kane et al), and every Leave campaigner is slagged off (Farage, Johnson, Gove et al). Spleen gets vented and catharsis takes place.

3) The hand-wringing begins: We'll never see England win anything for the rest of time because we are a shit country which produces shit players. We are a useless nation which can't possibly solve the problems of Brexit and things will never get any better.

4) After a period of mourning a new England manager is appointed and WC qualifications start and we suddenly start thinking that we have some players worth a cheer. After a long enough period of time (more than three days) for the markets to start to settle down and the papers have something else to report, we get a new Prime Minister and start to believe that the problems are not quite so serious and are solvable. Negotiations quietly take place.

In short: all media-driven crises have a limited shelf-life and once the media have moved on, they stop winding us up, and people settle down to worry about something else of the media's choosing.

 

 

 

You are of course right that life goes on, and that the fever-pitch intensity of discussion on the issue will die down eventually, but it's not likely to be for a while yet. We're going to have two leadership elections in the main two political parties, then conference season, then possibly a general election, although I don't see it personally, and then the decision to invoke Article 50, or not, and what form of Brexit we want, which will be a hugely charged decision in its own right. I think there's plenty enough to keep us going until Christmas. 

While the situations aren't analogous, it is possible for a country's dragged-out dealings with Europe to remain top of the agenda for years and years, as Greece demonstrates. 

[Chindie]

It's either a waste of time or the economy is **** for the foreseeable.

I'll take waste of time.

[villakram]

32 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

There has been many a Facebook comment I could have waded into , many bridges would have been burnt as a result i'm sure 

it's why VT has had to suffer all my frustrations as I've just bitten my tongue and ignored anything on social media , I'm not falling out with anyone near and dear to me over politics .... You lot are all a bunch of lefty word removeds and don't matter 

as ive said before I don't even know how my parents or brother even vote in a GE or how they voted last week ....long may it continue 

listen to the fascist proclaim 

[HanoiVillan]

11 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

If we join the EEA, then this whole referendum was a total waste of time.

I don't disagree at all. 

5 minutes ago, Chindie said:

It's either a waste of time or the economy is **** for the foreseeable.

I'll take waste of time.

Yes, exactly. 

[Kuwabatake Sanjuro]

An article worth reading from over here:

http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/vincent-browne-brexit-european-union-2851248-Jun2016/?utm_source=facebook_short

Quote

THE EUROPEAN UNION, its elites, its hyper fans had this coming to them.

They deliberately devised a supposedly idealistic project of a united Europe, founded on the subversion of democracy across the continent – the exclusion of the meddlesome masses, on an agenda that, inevitably, was going to deepen inequality.

All the bluster of a “social Europe” was just that. It was, essentially, never about anything other than the further enrichment of the rich, right from the inception of the European Coal and Steel Community manain 1951.

One of the “visionary” founders of the European project, Robert Schuman said that European Coal and Steel Community was “to make war not only unthinkable but materially impossible” – and he may have believed that.

But what became of it was a huge cartel that enriched the shareholders and managers of the coal and steel industries. And so it has continued ever since.

The Euro project has progressed by similar deceptions.

Lisbon problems

Just recall the machinations that underpinned the infamous Lisbon Treaty. In its original form, it was a new Constitution for Europe to replace and extend the then existing European Treaties.

It was agreed among the Member States in October 2004 and went for ratification among them.

Some such states, including Ireland, had to ratify the Constitution via referenda (incidentally, Tony Blair promised a referendum in the UK on the Constitution).

The French and Dutch people decisively rejected the Constitution in July 2005, after which the Constitution project was abandoned.

A “period of reflection” was undertaken.

Then, deception

That reflection led to a decision effectively to deceive the people of Europe and have the essence of the Constitution ratified, without resorting to annoying referenda – except in Ireland.

This was what became the Lisbon Treaty, drafted in such a way as to make it indecipherable to the mass of people throughout Europe.

Then when Ireland voted against it again – thereby scuttling the project once more, for the Treaty required ratification by all member states – remember what happened?

Ireland was required to vote again, under the guise of significant changes to the Treaty (a lie) and under the threat of expulsion or marginalisation from the EU if they Irish people didn’t comply (another lie).

We wilted and approved.

Ironically, had we refused again to approve that Treaty, it might not have been possible for the UK to leave the EU for there was no mechanism to do so until the Lisbon Treaty came along.

There is more not quoted.

[tonyh29]

It's on Facebook so I can't quote but some Irish MEP wrote an interesting insight into events today in Brussels .. Google Luke Flanagan MEP and you might find it ... 

 

he does seem like the Irish equivalent of Farage within the EU to some extent though so maybe take a lot of his article with a pinch of salt 

[Awol]

4 minutes ago, Kuwabatake Sanjuro said:

An article worth reading from over here:

http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/vincent-browne-brexit-european-union-2851248-Jun2016/?utm_source=facebook_short

There is more not quoted.

That's been pretty much my take on the EU since the Lisbon Treaty and why I wanted out - it's an anti-democratic cartel.

I do regret that unless UK gets an FTA with the EU (& we should) it may mean Ireland has no choice but to leave. The UK is such a big market for Ireland I'm not sure the economy could sustain tariffs between us. Hopefully the issue won't arise.

[Awol]

5 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

It's on Facebook so I can't quote but some Irish MEP wrote an interesting insight into events today in Brussels .. Google Luke Flanagan MEP and you might find it ... 

 

he does seem like the Irish equivalent of Farage within the EU to some extent though so maybe take a lot of his article with a pinch of salt 

I posted a link to a video of his a while ago about TTIP. Don't know his personal politics but his democratic objections to the EU were spot on regardless. 

[heffoman]

15 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

It's on Facebook so I can't quote but some Irish MEP wrote an interesting insight into events today in Brussels .. Google Luke Flanagan MEP and you might find it ... 

 

he does seem like the Irish equivalent of Farage within the EU to some extent though so maybe take a lot of his article with a pinch of salt 

Luke Flanagan is as far away from Farage as you could ever get. A heavy cannibas user and advocater of its legalization.

 

[tonyh29]

25 minutes ago, heffoman said:

Luke Flanagan is as far away from Farage as you could ever get. A heavy cannibas user and advocater of its legalization.

 

Probably wasn't clear I meant he's elected and paid to be in the EU but campaigns to destroy it ( I think )

[Kuwabatake Sanjuro]

38 minutes ago, Awol said:

I posted a link to a video of his a while ago about TTIP. Don't know his personal politics but his democratic objections to the EU were spot on regardless. 

Ming is ok, definitely no Farage as he spent his first 20 years of not getting elected running as cannabis legalisation candidate. Did some good parliamentary work on Garda (police) corruption before going to Europe. In general he would be vary from the centre to somewhere close to the far left on various issues. Sometimes libertarian.

[snowychap]

11 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

I cannot see a way we don't leave the EU. The question couldn't have been simpler, the answer was clear.

48% of the electorate might not like it, well suck it up as best you can. 

The detail of who we get to do the deal and when, that's where the conversation needs to be, not some fantasy project to undo a democratic vote. We get lied to at every election. We didn't re run the election of the coalition government because it turned out Clegg was a liar happier in power than true to his word. 

Scary how quickly some people are happy to try and alter who can vote or whether other people's votes really count if they don't agree. A dangerous weird view of democracy.

 

In most democracies, fundamental constitutional change requires much more than a simple majority on an advisory vote.

As we live in a representative democracy where parliament is sovereign and has already decided that the referendum be advisory, it is most definitely democratic and constitutional if parliament were to ignore the result of the election and tell people to 'suck it up'.

I don't advise that they do this, by the way.

[snowychap]

10 hours ago, MakemineVanilla said:

But isn't that the same argument that the US gun lobby use to claim that the second amendment can't be changed, which Lefties tend to ridicule?

No. Especially as you've taken this as an opportuinity to shoehorn the capitalized word 'Lefties' in to your criticism.

Edited June 28, 2016 by snowychap

[snowychap]

8 hours ago, MakemineVanilla said:

There is a surprising parallel...

No, there isn't or, rather, no it shouldn't be [surprising].

Life in whatever area tends to mirror everything else. The way in which people regard politics is not dissimilar to the way in which they regard football or any other sport or activity in which they engage.

You merely explain the process that people always go through of dealing with 'ills'. You do, however, miss out the vital part where people exclaim, in the wake of the catastrophe being experienced, "Never again [will we make these mistakes]!!".

[BOF]

3 hours ago, HanoiVillan said:

To be honest, I'd rather people didn't drive the country's economy off a cliff on a point of principle. 

Remaining in the EEA is a next-best solution. It would likely prevent thousands of job losses, pension fund shortfalls and whatever else. I wouldn't call a politician trying to salvage a decent solution from a terrible situation a 'greased up pig'. 

Are you wantonly missing my point?The ones who will be likely tasked with pushing the big red button will be the ones who campaigned for it. The greased pig reference is because they don't really want it to happen. Cameron has called their bluff already.  By walking away he effectively said "you do it". They won't. No way. And the very politicians who have been asking for Britain to leave the EU will now spend the next <however long it takes> avoiding invoking Article 50 and avoiding being cornered on why they are refusing to do so. They've basically achieved a result they didn't want because they didn't think they could. 

[HanoiVillan]

3 hours ago, BOF said:

Are you wantonly missing my point?The ones who will be likely tasked with pushing the big red button will be the ones who campaigned for it. The greased pig reference is because they don't really want it to happen. Cameron has called their bluff already.  By walking away he effectively said "you do it". They won't. No way. And the very politicians who have been asking for Britain to leave the EU will now spend the next <however long it takes> avoiding invoking Article 50 and avoiding being cornered on why they are refusing to do so. They've basically achieved a result they didn't want because they didn't think they could. 

Certainly not trying to miss it.

Your post seemed to be drawing a parallel between the Remain side and the Leave side, and I took this from the phrase 'This will be modern democracy at work'. It seemed to me as if you were making a 'plague on both their houses' point. If you weren't, I apologise for misinterpreting you. 

I don't agree with the strength of your conviction that Article 50 won't be invoked. Of course, it will depend who wins the Tory leadership campaign, but if Boris wins, as I expect to happen, he will have to invoke it. If he doesn't, his government will be dead on arrival before he does anything. I do agree that some of the Leave campaign didn't really want to win, but I think that's mostly restricted to Boris to be honest. Gove, Hannan, Farage, Duncan Smith, Patel - these people really wanted to Leave. They might not have had a plan, but they wanted the result they got. 

[Demitri_C]

Already they are saying we cant get a deal without free movement of immigrants. So lets rewind two main objectives for out were

1) immigration to go down if we leave (not going to happen if we want a deal with EU)

2) money for NHS (confirmed by Farage as a lie)

Great 

 

[tonyh29]

23 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

Already they are saying we cant get a deal without free movement of immigrants. So lets rewind two main objectives for out were

1) immigration to go down if we leave (not going to happen if we want a deal with EU)

2) money for NHS (confirmed by Farage as a lie)

Great 

 

for some maybe  , but from the polling it seemed for a majority of the 17m immigration wasn't the number one issue it was about making our own decisions

 

the NHS thing was clearly a red herring , I've a sneaky feeling someone from the campaign team logged onto Villa Talk and knew our rule that everything monetary related had to be measured in nurses and hospitals and thought  Good idea ,I'm nicking that