tonyh29 Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 2 minutes ago, Risso said: And Corbyn has been anti EU all his career, and Cameron was prepared to leave as well. It's all about their careers and very little to do with what's best for the country. I was about to say the very same thing , I'm not even sure why Boris got singled out tbh 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 2 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: I was about to say the very same thing , I'm not even sure why Boris got singled out tbh See I dont agree with the Cameron point, he is finished after these 5 years so why would he care if he wanted out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 1 hour ago, Genie said: Oh dear, I think I can guess which way he voted as I 've seen a lot of that kind of material on fb from the out campaign. If remain wins, then I'm sure there will be a whole raft of conspiracy theories... Join MI5 they said. See the world they said. All I've done in the last two years is erase ballot papers. (only works if you've heard the interweb conspiracy that MI5 are going to rig the election) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted June 23, 2016 VT Supporter Share Posted June 23, 2016 3 minutes ago, Risso said: And Corbyn has been anti EU all his career, and Cameron was prepared to leave as well. It's all about their careers and very little to do with what's best for the country. I think Corbyn would more accurately described as being against some elements of the EU, he's not anti-EU as a concept. If the referendum was 'stay and leave as is or heavily restructure the organisation' he'd go for the restructure. But it isn't. It's stay or go and stay is closer to his politics than leave. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brommy Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 Cameron stated he would back leave if certain demands weren't met. Those demands were widely seen as only partially met or rather paltry, especially as we know the main issue for many is his failure to get anywhere near his aim of only double digit thousands in net migration to the UK. Having previously stated that he was ready to leave, apparently it will be catastrophic. Something doesn't add up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 2 minutes ago, Chindie said: I think Corbyn would more accurately described as being against some elements of the EU, he's not anti-EU as a concept. If the referendum was 'stay and leave as is or heavily restructure the organisation' he'd go for the restructure. But it isn't. It's stay or go and stay is closer to his politics than leave. I think you are being somewhat blinkered here ...... He voted No in 1975 , he voted against the Maastricht treaty , he voted against the Lisbon treaty I think its safe to say he has changed his mind purely for political gains , though I'll concede that he is doing it for Party gain rather than personal gain as opposed to someone like Boris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lapal_fan Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 Voted Remain, for reasons previously given - there are no serious reasons for me to leave, including my career which is wholly about Art 8 of the European Energy Directive. The vast majority of people in my building (i imagine), will remain, although I overheard the 2 people opposite me (office manager/FM) saying "out". Think my old man, despite him saying he's a Remain is voting for "out", my mom has been swayed to Remain by my awesome sources (Chindie, Blandy, OBE's sources :lol:) My polling station is in Cradley Heath (one of the poorest wards in the country, which I'm moving out of thank ****) was full of stupid people who couldn't manage to fold their polling cards twice to fit them in the ballot boxes. It's going to be close, but whatever man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danwichmann Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 6 minutes ago, brommy said: Cameron stated he would back leave if certain demands weren't met. Those demands were widely seen as only partially met or rather paltry, especially as we know the main issue for many is his failure to get anywhere near his aim of only double digit thousands in net migration to the UK. Having previously stated that he was ready to leave, apparently it will be catastrophic. Something doesn't add up. Cameron started out trying to placate the Eurosceptics in his own party and nullify the threat to the Tories from ukip. For him it's all been about his own position and keeping the Tories in power. It has back fired spectacularly as whatever happens they will be more divided than ever. He is yet another career politician with no principles, only looking out for his own power . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharkyvilla Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 11 minutes ago, Chindie said: I think Corbyn would more accurately described as being against some elements of the EU, he's not anti-EU as a concept. If the referendum was 'stay and leave as is or heavily restructure the organisation' he'd go for the restructure. But it isn't. It's stay or go and stay is closer to his politics than leave. Ultimately whoever is involved it's basically a vote between those who hate the EU and want to leave, and those who hate the EU but want to stay and hopefully change it. I don't object to anyone for changing their long term views on leaving the EU recently, as I have myself in the last few months, sure the likes of Boris have other interests beyond just this referendum, and Corbyn is campaigning to stay through gritted teeth. I just hope we vote to stay and then can just forget the whole sodding thing. I suspect what will happen is Cameron will stay on for a year or two before Boris takes over when things have healed a bit, it should still be an ambition to work and change aspects of the EU whether you campaign or vote for in or out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 I actually think Corbyn has been one of the most truthful politicians regarding the EU. He's famously against much of the anti democratic unaccountable badness of the EU. The secret trade deals, the dictats from the suits. But he also knows that big business will have just as much influence on a pro TTIP tory party, if not more. He knows that 'british democracy' ain't exactly perfect. He also knows that right now, Labour are 10 years away from being elected. So, when asked where he stood on remaining in the EU, as a score out of 10. He had a little think, and said probably 7 to 7.5 Which actually made him more pro europe than me. But 7 to 7.5 just isn't a sound bite when others are shouting about bananas, pasties and world war 3. It's almost as though Corbyn didn't see it as a simple black n white issue. Such thinking cannot be allowed in the soundbite, photo op, text vote world. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hippo Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 In the future do we actually need a referendum to leave the EU ? If a party included 'leaving the EU' in there manifesto and won a general election - could they just have a parliament vote.... ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 3 minutes ago, sharkyvilla said: it should still be an ambition to work and change aspects of the EU whether you campaign or vote for in or out. I keep hearing that Cameron went to the EU and in effect came back with nothing , Blair wanted reform on the EU’s farm subsidy scheme , all he managed to do was surrender £9.3 Bn from the UK rebate and got nothing in return why are people suddenly so optimistic that the EU can reformed by us ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 4 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: I actually think Corbyn has been one of the most truthful politicians regarding the EU. there's been some great memes , posters and funnies on the EU debate , but genuinely that line has made me laugh the most out of all of them , have a like Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, HanoiVillan said: If Leave win then we invoke article 50 or whatever number it is, there's no doubt about that. The referendum result is not binding. Edit: If what you were saying is that you can't see the government going against the result then I agree but it isn't because they must abide by it. Edited June 23, 2016 by snowychap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danwichmann Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 7 minutes ago, hippo said: In the future do we actually need a referendum to leave the EU ? If a party included 'leaving the EU' in there manifesto and won a general election - could they just have a parliament vote.... ? I could be wrong, but I don't think there is any legally binding reason to have a referendum. But parliament would never pass a vote to leave unless endorsed by the public. The EU still has massive cross party support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 4 minutes ago, snowychap said: The referendum result is not binding. I was wondering about this , hypothetically of course Is Cameron obliged to invoke this straight away or could he drag his heels a little , in the meantime the main rulers of Westminster the SNP call a vote of no confidence 20 or 30 rebel conservatives back it and we get a General election , Corbyn wins it and then says I'm not going to do it as it isn't Labour policy and thus we stay or is that too far fetched? ........ Corbyn winning an election I mean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 1 minute ago, Danwichmann said: I could be wrong, but I don't think there is any legally binding reason to have a referendum. But parliament would never pass a vote to leave unless endorsed by the public. The EU still has massive cross party support. Whilst not a vote to leave the Lisbon treaty was a manifesto promise , with a referendum , which never came , people just shrugged and switched on their TV's to watch Strictly come dancing ..... possibly now people are more engaged , but if a government thought they could get away with it , I think it could possibly pass more easily than you think .. OT but , every Labour supporter and his dog tell us repeatedly the Conservatives want to privatise the NHS , every social media outlet tells us how much everyone loves our NHS and how we should save it ... How is it you think that one policy can't be passed not endorsed by a public and yet another one can ? (you the collective , not you specifically ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarewsEyebrowDesigner Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 I think the Labour leaders have been refreshingly nuanced in their position but such nuance is viewed as weakness by a media that prefers binary oppositions and a public that appears to prefer blustering arrogance over considered opinion. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 Just now, tonyh29 said: there's been some great memes , posters and funnies on the EU debate , but genuinely that line has made me laugh the most out of all of them , have a like just thought I'd slip it in there it is a bit like having to choose your most trustworthy crocodile Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danwichmann Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 3 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: Whilst not a vote to leave the Lisbon treaty was a manifesto promise , with a referendum , which never came , people just shrugged and switched on their TV's to watch Strictly come dancing ..... possibly now people are more engaged , but if a government thought they could get away with it , I think it could possibly pass more easily than you think .. OT but , every Labour supporter and his dog tell us repeatedly the Conservatives want to privatise the NHS , every social media outlet tells us how much everyone loves our NHS and how we should save it ... How is it you think that one policy can't be passed not endorsed by a public and yet another one can ? (you the collective , not you specifically ) I only say it wouldn't pass parliament without clear public support because it isn't something a majority of politicians want. If it was good for them, they wanted it, they'd do it and did the public will. They would only pass it if they felt they had no choice in this case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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