Mantis Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 24 minutes ago, mjmooney said: And yet that's how democracy works. We don't go through the minutiae of every issue, we leave it up to the politicians. And we have a GENERAL idea of what parties stand for. I've voted Labour all my life - even when they were far too right wing for my liking - because even New Labour were less loathesome than the Tories. This issue doesn't divide neatly on party lines, but my gut feeling is that if Cameron and Corbyn can agree on something (albeit for different reasons), that inspires more confidence than something favoured by tossers like Farage/Johnson/Galloway/Gove. Were Corbyn not Labour leader I think it's pretty likely he'd be campaigning to leave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Marka Ragnos Posted February 21, 2016 VT Supporter Popular Post Share Posted February 21, 2016 Stay in Europe -- and please dissolve the dreadful monarchy. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meregreen Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 10 minutes ago, Mantis said: Were Corbyn not Labour leader I think it's pretty likely he'd be campaigning to leave. And your evidence for this is ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meregreen Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 3 hours ago, OutByEaster? said: Awol is absolutely right on trade - trade won't suffer - governments will not be allowed to interfere with that, whether we remain or exit the EU. Tarifs would probably reappear. And because of this . foreign companies based here could relocate to the EU. This is a possibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wainy316 Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 U.K. Population set to rise by 10 million in the next 20 years . Common sense tells me to get Out . We could just ban sexual intercourse. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted February 22, 2016 Author Share Posted February 22, 2016 7 hours ago, Wainy316 said: We could just ban sexual intercourse. ....if Europe approves it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 (edited) 17 hours ago, meregreen said: And your evidence for this is ? I guess we could look at the last in / out vote in 75 and get some idea from that ? seems he voted to leave , all be it Europe was a different animal back when that vote took place ... But he ( and his deputy ) have a history of voting against Europe Quote “We were joined on many occasions over the last 20-odd years in the lobby when we were doing our bit to oppose the various treaties and issues which were furthering EU domination of our country. Jeremy was always with us and John McDonnell was always with us,” said Hoey. again that can be argued that he wouldn't be campagning to leave outright but coupled with the only other vote on the subject it does offer some fairly compelling evidence of course people can change their views we've seen Corbyn the republican become Corbyn the Royalist for example Edited February 22, 2016 by tonyh29 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meregreen Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 52 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: I guess we could look at the last in / out vote in 75 and get some idea from that ? seems he voted to leave , all be it Europe was a different animal back when that vote took place ... But he ( and his deputy ) have a history of voting against Europe agaisn that can be argued that he wouldn't be campagning to leave outright but coupled with the only other vote on the subject it does offer some fairly compelling evidence of course people can change their views we've seen Corbyn the republican become Corbyn the Royalist for example Plenty of people who voted no in 75 have revised their views on membership of the EU. It's a very different animal to the one we had then. Corbyn has stated that although he believes certain aspects of the EU are not perfect, he considers that overall, membership is in the countrys best interests and to leave now could be very damaging. The fact is we are only having this referendum because of the interminable split in the Tory party over our membership. Cameron sought to prick UKIPS bubble during the election, probably thinking it would never happen, as he expected to be in another coalition with the Lib Dems, who would have scuppered it. I think Corbyn is very much, as I am, a Republican by nature, believing in a meritocracy rather than an aristocracy. This however does not prevent him from showing good manners and courtesy to the present, and I hope last incumbent of that role 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted February 22, 2016 VT Supporter Share Posted February 22, 2016 What has the EU ever done for us? Quote A cap on mobile roaming charges Thanks to the EU Roaming Regulation, in force since 2007, when you travel across Europe your mobile phone bill is much lower. The maximum an operator can charge is €0.24 (roughly 20p) a minute for outgoing calls, €0.7 for incoming calls and €0.8 for texts (less than 7p) and €0.45 (37p) a megabyte for online data. Rates will drop further from July 2014. Compensation and food when flights are delayed or cancelled This is a right very few of us realise we have. If your flight is delayed, cancelled or you are “bumped” because of overbooking you may be able to claim up to €600 (roughly £490), yet only 2 per cent of people who can claim do so. The right to study in Europe — possibly for free As an EU citizen you can study at any EU university — and could save thousands of pounds in fees. In Denmark tuition is free, while in Holland fees are about £1,500 a year. The UK does not fund fees at overseas universities but if you are liable to pay full tuition fees in the UK, it could be cheaper to study in another EU state. The right to state healthcare While this is a right many of us are aware of, it is important to check that you have a European Health Insurance Card (EHIC) and that it has not expired (it is free to renew at ehic.org.uk or from 0300 330 1350). The card allows you access to the same state-provided healthcare, at the same cost, as people insured in other EU countries (and a few more). The right to retire in Europe A retirement home in the sun is a dream for many Brits, and is a right that has been taken advantage of by those who have chosen to spend their golden years in Spain and France. Shoppers’ rights to compensation and refunds With internet shopping becoming increasingly popular, EU consumer rights are now something that all of us need to know about. For example, if an item you bought from an EU country does not look or work as advertised, the seller must repair or replace it free of charge, or give you a refund The right to trade across borders The UK has a growing army of small businesses and people venturing out as self-employed. Being part of the EU gives us a much larger market to tap into — and a level playing field. The right to work and vote across the EU UK Citizens have the right to work across the EU— and vote in EU elections. However, the same applies to those from other EU states who chose to live and work here.... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 52 minutes ago, meregreen said: Plenty of people who voted no in 75 have revised their views on membership of the EU. It's a very different animal to the one we had then. tbf I said exactly that , you even used the same word Id imagine many would suspect that what Corbyn is saying and what Corbyn believes are two different things ( and in fairness that could be the same for many a politician ) ... Corbyn has a reputation for being a Eurosceptic, I think that's widely acknowledged ? My take would be that if he were a backbencher he would be voting to leave (that's just my take so tolerate me on that one please as I can't present concrete evidence ) As leader if he splits the party they are going to miss out on a very large opportunity that the Tory party are about to deliver onto his lap as Tory civil war breaks out over the next few months .... Arguably we go back to this In / Out decision being played for political gains rather than what is good for the country and the inhabitants ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted February 22, 2016 Moderator Share Posted February 22, 2016 4 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: Id imagine many would suspect that what Corbyn is saying and what Corbyn believes are two different things I don't agree. He's pretty much known for saying what he thinks, regardless of the wisdom or reward for doing so. I think he is unenthusiastic about Yurp, but overall sees it as less bad being in, than out. He likes the worker protection and environment protection etc. but not so much the undemocratic nature of the place and the tendency to pander to big business. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 For what it's worth, I think Corbyn has a natural inclination against Europe and it's distant suited gentleman deciding stuff in secret on our behalf. However, he's also aware that to get his long term wish of an exit from an undemocratic Europe right now, would leave us with a conservative UK where the main voices would be Boris on behalf of The City of London, Farage on behalf of Farage, Redwood on behalf of Satan and Rees Mogg on behalf of the 1930's. This problem, a faceless EU or a Boris run UK, is to a large degree, of Labour's own making. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted February 22, 2016 Moderator Share Posted February 22, 2016 27 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: This problem, a faceless EU or a Boris run UK, is to a large degree, of Labour's own making. I'm intrigued as to why you think that. Faceless EU - well yes, but why is that labour's doing? Boris UK - again, why is that labour's doing? Surely this whole thing is more about a riven tory party that just can't help itself on Yurp. Half of them thing "Yurp - makes big business and banks happy, so we like it" and the other half thinks "Britannia ruling the waves again and sticking it to Johnny Foreigner is what'll happen when we leave". I find the notion of voting for something Cameron and Osborne and May and the other ones recommend to be nauseating. I find the same applies to the Boris/Gove/Farage/Galloway/ sect. But I'm baffled why any of that is Labour's doing 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakemineVanilla Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 The issue of trade is interesting in terms of a number of issues. The UK has a trade deficit with the EC of around £8-10bn a month and the UK has the biggest global trade deficit with Germany. The UK's deficit with the EC is with goods and this is only offset by financial services. The biggest losers from the UK leaving the EC would be Germany, in terms of their exports and the contributions they would be forced to replace. Back in 1975 when the first referendum occurred the Left described the Common Market, as it was then, as a capitalist club, and it is difficult to dispute that analysis forty years later. It seems that each country has followed its own interests, in that Germany is still the world's third largest exporter, and both Italy and France export more than the UK (less than a third of Germany's). The question it invites is whether the UK's decline in manufacturing and the over-reliance on the financial sector is a direct result of belonging to the EC, and the specialist role we have created for ourselves within the community. Could the fact that the UK is the second most unequal society in the EC, have been caused by the role we have been assigned within the capitalist club, which has meant the decline of well-paid jobs in UK manufacturing and produced a plethora of low-paid jobs in service industries and a financial elite who enjoy obscene rewards while exposing us to the next financial collapse. Wouldn't leaving the EC make us less reliant on European goods and prompt us to start making our own? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted February 22, 2016 Moderator Share Posted February 22, 2016 37 minutes ago, MakemineVanilla said: The question it invites is whether the UK's decline in manufacturing and the over-reliance on the financial sector is a direct result of belonging to the EC, and the specialist role we have created for ourselves within the community. No, it's Thatcher's fault (and the ones who followed her) 38 minutes ago, MakemineVanilla said: Wouldn't leaving the EC make us less reliant on European goods and prompt us to start making our own? No, it won't make any discernible difference. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 3 hours ago, blandy said: I don't agree. He's pretty much known for saying what he thinks, regardless of the wisdom or reward for doing so. I think he is unenthusiastic about Yurp, but overall sees it as less bad being in, than out. He likes the worker protection and environment protection etc. but not so much the undemocratic nature of the place and the tendency to pander to big business. I think you wouldn't be so generous if that were Cameron or Osborne we were talking about he's a politician he goes with the wind as his recent actions have proven ( tbh I know nothing about him prior to the leadership battle , I think what your saying sounds about fair prior to him being leader though) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted February 22, 2016 VT Supporter Share Posted February 22, 2016 22 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: I think you wouldn't be so generous if that were Cameron or Osborne we were talking about he's a politician he goes with the wind as his recent actions have proven ( tbh I know nothing about him prior to the leadership battle , I think what your saying sounds about fair prior to him being leader though) Saying "He's a politician, he goes with the wind" would be true of almost all of them, EXCEPT Corbyn (and a handful of others, all parties). He really doesn't. He is, however, leading a party in transition, with a lot of the PLP not backing him. So he has been forced into a degree of pragmatism. On Europe, I agree what others here have said - he's gone with the lesser of two evils. As I said upthread, better Cameron than Farage and Galloway. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted February 22, 2016 Moderator Share Posted February 22, 2016 18 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: I think you wouldn't be so generous if that were Cameron or Osborne we were talking about he's a politician he goes with the wind as his recent actions have proven ( tbh I know nothing about him prior to the leadership battle , I think what your saying sounds about fair prior to him being leader though) I think he's a terrible leader. But I can't think of any instances of him "going with the wind" - quite the opposite - I can think of things where he'd be better off at least keeping quiet, rather than saying what he believes - Trident for example. The maths says he will lose any vote on it. So don't pick a fight, just keep quiet. Even on this yurp thing, he's raising things about principles he holds (protection of low paid workers, TTIP) rather than what a "normal" leader would (should) do - which is to absolutely tear into Cameron and the tories for their shenanigans on the EU. There is a huge wedge of evidence of Cameron and Osborne doing one thing and saying another, or of saying utterly contradictory things a few months apart. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 (edited) 44 minutes ago, mjmooney said: Saying "He's a politician, he goes with the wind" would be true of almost all of them, EXCEPT Corbyn (and a handful of others, all parties). He really doesn't. He is, however, leading a party in transition, with a lot of the PLP not backing him. So he has been forced into a degree of pragmatism. On Europe, I agree what others here have said - he's gone with the lesser of two evils. As I said upthread, better Cameron than Farage and Galloway. so to be clear he doesn't go with the wind except when he has to but then it's called pragmatism Edited February 22, 2016 by tonyh29 removed the last sentence in case it was deemed to be deliberatly provoking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 1 hour ago, blandy said: I think he's a terrible leader. But I can't think of any instances of him "going with the wind" - quite the opposite - I can think of things where he'd be better off at least keeping quiet, rather than saying what he believes - Trident for example. The maths says he will lose any vote on it. So don't pick a fight, just keep quiet. Even on this yurp thing, he's raising things about principles he holds (protection of low paid workers, TTIP) rather than what a "normal" leader would (should) do - which is to absolutely tear into Cameron and the tories for their shenanigans on the EU. There is a huge wedge of evidence of Cameron and Osborne doing one thing and saying another, or of saying utterly contradictory things a few months apart. I think we are looking at differed definitions of "going with the wind " here On Trident but he was firm No until his paymasters expressed concern and then he came up with a compromise , maybe that's good leadership , but maybe it's also a change with the wind and then lets take Syria ... I had the impression that he wanted a whip vote on No to airstrikes , then when it became apparent he was going to lose , he gave a free vote and then sacked the dissenters in a cabinet reshuffle a few days later ... in my view that's also a change with the wind ... I call that doing all you can to keep your job .. again I don't blame him , he's not unique , but lets not make him to be something he isn't You can argue I suppose that his own view on Syria and Trident didn't change but then that goes back to my original statement .... Edit - possibly straying into the Labour thread now rather than Europe ? happy to go to that one if it's not already done to death Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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