The banker loving, baby-eating Tory party thread (regenerated)

[Dr_Pangloss]

40 minutes ago, bobzy said:

Anyone citing out "no credible alternative" is a part of the problem.  A utter shambles of a Labour government wouldn't hand out the harshness to the nation that the Conservatives will.

 

But, hey, loads voted for the blue so loads will suffer.  Excellent stuff.

 

Edit:  I should add, "part of the problem" if you actually consider well being for all humans as a good thing.  If not, then I guess one would have just voted as their beliefs sit.

I think this is simplistic and sanctimonious since by extension you're basically suggesting that anyone who voted e.g. for Lib Dems or Greens are 'part of the problem' insofar as a vote for those parties over Labour would pretty much realistically land the Tories in government.

This isn't how democracy should work, it's perfectly acceptable to hate the Tories but retain ones principles. If a Labour government doesn't match those principles and preference then it's not a bad thing to refuse to vote them.

Edited January 29, 2020 by Dr_Pangloss

[HanoiVillan]

Honestly, talking about tea towels and 50 pence pieces and Big Ben bongs and writing on the White Cliffs is talking about Brexit at exactly the culture war level that the Tories want to talk about it at. If it's just your symbols against their symbols you probably won't win. 

Better to focus on the details of the negotiations and agreements. 

[bobzy]

25 minutes ago, Dr_Pangloss said:

I think this is simplistic and sanctimonious since by extension you're basically suggesting that anyone who voted e.g. for Lib Dems or Greens are 'part of the problem' insofar as a vote for those parties over Labour would pretty much realistically land the Tories in government.

This isn't how democracy should work, it's perfectly acceptable to hate the Tories but retain ones principles. If a Labour government doesn't match those principles and preference then it's not a bad thing to refuse to vote them.

Basically, yes. If you voted that way, you ensured a Conservative government - even though its completely correct to vote for the party you align to. 
 

Absolutely agree that it isn’t how it should work. Badly needs reform. 

[bobzy]

3 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

Honestly, talking about tea towels and 50 pence pieces and Big Ben bongs and writing on the White Cliffs is talking about Brexit at exactly the culture war level that the Tories want to talk about it at. If it's just your symbols against their symbols you probably won't win. 

Better to focus on the details of the negotiations and agreements. 

Honestly, though, the “general public” don’t read about what’s actually going on or, IMO, particularly care. 

[blandy]

1 hour ago, bobzy said:

Anyone citing out "no credible alternative" is a part of the problem.

They're really not. Blaming the voters for being (part of) the problem is a surefire way to oblivion.

[HanoiVillan]

11 minutes ago, bobzy said:

Honestly, though, the “general public” don’t read about what’s actually going on or, IMO, particularly care. 

I don't think that's true, to be honest. The idea that 'remoaners' 'won't accept the referendum result' ("what do they want, the best of three *scoff*"?) is widespread amongst the 'general public' and people going on about how they won't personally accept Brexit 50p pieces from shopkeepers and whatever else plays exactly into that. 

When people are asked to focus on Boris Johnson's actual competence, they tend to like him less. His uselessness around Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe is one example of something that average voters actually picked up on. When he's allowed to turn politics into waving British flags while dangling from a zipwire or driving a tractor through a wall of foam bricks or organising voluntary Brexit litter-picking, he's winning. Tea towels and 50p pieces are the latter, not the former. 

[snowychap]

33 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

Honestly, talking about tea towels and 50 pence pieces and Big Ben bongs and writing on the White Cliffs is talking about Brexit at exactly the culture war level that the Tories want to talk about it at. If it's just your symbols against their symbols you probably won't win. 

Better to focus on the details of the negotiations and agreements. 

Isn't it possible to laugh at the first group of things and talk about the second?

[blandy]

2 minutes ago, snowychap said:

Isn't it possible to laugh at the first group of things and talk about the second?

Aye. Though the whole lot is laughable

 

[HanoiVillan]

1 minute ago, snowychap said:

Isn't it possible to laugh at the first group of things and talk about the second?

It's not for me to tell people what they can and can't laugh at, but my view is that it's more politically effective to ignore all this stuff. I haven't really seen many, or indeed any, brilliant jokes about 50p pieces, but maybe they're out there. 

[bobzy]

24 minutes ago, blandy said:

They're really not. Blaming the voters for being (part of) the problem is a surefire way to oblivion.

I appreciate that there are many choices for who to vote for etc - and it isn’t really “blame”. However, if you didn’t vote for Labour in the last election, you have actively preferred to have a Conservative government - no?

[snowychap]

2 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

It's not for me to tell people what they can and can't laugh at, but my view is that it's more politically effective to ignore all this stuff. I haven't really seen many, or indeed any, brilliant jokes about 50p pieces, but maybe they're out there. 

There don't need to be 'brilliant jokes'. You can laugh at things without there having to have been some sort of 'brilliant joke' created, surely?

How is it more politically effective to ignore all this stuff? Effective where, in what forum?

Do you really think that no laughing about or at tea towels, 50p coins, Mark Francois et al. is going to have any positive political effect upon the input of people who are not Brexiteers in any sort of debate about the details of the negotiations or the agreements? If you do then I think you're sorely mistaken.

The scoffing and the counter-scoffing don't crowd out serious debate. There is, has been, and forever will be a lack of serious debate about the subject amongst the 'general public' (and the majority of politicians).

[blandy]

28 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

I haven't really seen many, or indeed any, brilliant jokes about 50p pieces, but maybe they're out there

If there are any jokes about Brexit 50ps I bet they're either wrong-headed,  far fetched tails of complete fancy or much edgier than other coin jokes -  though jokes about coins are often made by to$$ers....oh!

[HanoiVillan]

8 minutes ago, snowychap said:

How is it more politically effective to ignore all this stuff? Effective where, in what forum?

Why do we have a Brexit 50p, except that the Tories think there will be some advantage in it?

Leaving the EU has been an enormous amount of time, effort and national prestige already, and most people are not going to experience any tangible benefits in their daily lives. One way to sell a policy that doesn't help people is to turn it into a big battle of cultural identity, especially if you can pitch yourself, however unrealistically, as fighting against the 'elites' who are looking down their noses and laughing at you. 

Has a single American ever changed their views on Donald Trump because they watched the Late Show?

23 minutes ago, snowychap said:

Do you really think that no laughing about or at tea towels, 50p coins, Mark Francois et al. is going to have any positive political effect upon the input of people who are not Brexiteers in any sort of debate about the details of the negotiations or the agreements? If you do then I think you're sorely mistaken.

The scoffing and the counter-scoffing don't crowd out serious debate. There is, has been, and forever will be a lack of serious debate about the subject amongst the 'general public' (and the majority of politicians).

I feel like you're taking this as a personal dig, which isn't how it is intended. I'm not doubting your ability to do these two things at once. But on aggregate, and at a whole-culture level, I think it would be better to focus less on the ephemera around January 31st, and more on how the Tories are actually executing this scheme of theirs. It's certainly more likely to persuade people IMO. 

[blandy]

14 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

It's certainly more likely to persuade people

Not many people will change their minds about Brexit, whatever the depth or breadth of discussion.

So laughing at porky tubes like Mark Francois and his gammon themed tea-towel or Jacob Mogg-Rees with his 50p with a jobby on it is at least some solace.

[HanoiVillan]

8 minutes ago, blandy said:

Not many people will change their minds about Brexit, whatever the depth or breadth of discussion.

So laughing at porky tubes like Mark Francois and his gammon themed tea-towel or Jacob Mogg-Rees with his 50p with a jobby on it is at least some solace.

About whether to do it or not, no, you're right, that ship has sailed.

About whether the Tories are doing a good job of it, we'd better hope it's possible to either change some people's minds or at least get them to care more about something else. 

[ml1dch]

1 hour ago, bobzy said:

I appreciate that there are many choices for who to vote for etc - and it isn’t really “blame”. However, if you didn’t vote for Labour in the last election, you have actively preferred to have a Conservative government - no?

So I should have voted Labour, who always get around 10-15% of the vote, in my one-time Tory/ Lib Dem marginal, now relatively safe Lib Dem seat should I? 

Edited January 29, 2020 by ml1dch

[snowychap]

49 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

Why do we have a Brexit 50p, except that the Tories think there will be some advantage in it?

Leaving the EU has been an enormous amount of time, effort and national prestige already, and most people are not going to experience any tangible benefits in their daily lives. One way to sell a policy that doesn't help people is to turn it into a big battle of cultural identity, especially if you can pitch yourself, however unrealistically, as fighting against the 'elites' who are looking down their noses and laughing at you. 

Has a single American ever changed their views on Donald Trump because they watched the Late Show?

That policy is sold whether or not people laugh at Big Ben Bongs, tea towels and fifty pence pieces.

The pitching will still take place whether or not people laugh at these things. If it isn't done and people go around 'ignoring these things' then it will be pitched that the laughing is taking place behind the others' backs or that the ignoring is just for show, a further example of aloofness and actually really even more insulting to the other lot of people than laughing at the things in the first place.

What you need in order to be able to pitch something to people is a receptive audience - the other side is largely immaterial (who they are, why they are, whether they actually exist, &c.).

The receptive audience is there. The culture/identity wars aren't going to go away and these battles aren't going to be obviated simply by ignoring things - indeed, I think there's a point at which this is quite counterproductive.

49 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

I feel like you're taking this as a personal dig, which isn't how it is intended. I'm not doubting your ability to do these two things at once. But on aggregate, and at a whole-culture level, I think it would be better to focus less on the ephemera around January 31st, and more on how the Tories are actually executing this scheme of theirs. It's certainly more likely to persuade people IMO.

I'm not taking it as a personal dig. Seriously. I do object to the position, though.

I think there are several problems with it:

• I don't think it's too healthy to have a society where people's reaction to things and events is formulated merely on what might be the most politically effective response;
• I think it plays in to the binary assessment of the electorate (pro Remain v pro Brexit) which is pretty much baked in for the next couple of decades regardless of whether people chortle at Richard Tice's speaker system and makes a huge assumption that I (or whoever it is to whom you're directing your comments) is in a particular camp trying to persuade another or others to come over to that camp;
• it appears to fundamentally ignore actual political debate (and thus what may/would persuade people)*;
• (this might be where I do take this personally) it seems to deny me my right to laugh like it's going out of fashion at plums like Mark Francois.

*In response to your 'has a single American ever changed their views...?', I'd wonder how many have actually changed their views on Brexit because of the intricacies of rules of origin requirements, expositions on the nature of political sovereignty, the actual text of the Protocol on Northern Ireland, &c.? Sure, a few may have but I don't think many have (either way). The point being that the debate about the details, negotiations and arrangements has been happening but it has been largely ignored by the general public and will continue to be - see the discussion about the EU (WA) Act (formerly WAB).

 

Edit: And just to add, I'm also quite amused by anyone who would get in to a strop receiving one of the 50p coins in change and threaten to throw it away. If they really don't want them then they can send them to me. I'll gladly accept them as long as they're genuine coins whatever the **** is written on them.

 

Edited January 29, 2020 by snowychap
spelling, a bit of reformatting, &c.

[blandy]

1 hour ago, bobzy said:

if you didn’t vote for Labour in the last election, you have actively preferred to have a Conservative government - no?

No. I mean I didn't vote at all. But if I had (been able to) I'd have voted for (probably) the Greens. Where I live, is and was a safe Tory seat . Who I vote for makes absolutely no impact or difference. That applies to many many constituenceis - as you said, the system is broken. My vote is utterly meaningless. The only ones that matter are where there's a chance of the seat changing hands. That only happens when the incumbent party in that seat (or occasionally the individual MP) completely loses the plot and/or the opponent is seen as a better option.

Labour wasn't a better option than the tories, not only in already held tory seats, but even in seats where Labour was the incumbent and long held choice. And that after a 9 year long clusterpork of Tory mismanagement, cruelty and incompetence. Labour under Corbyn was so bad, so unelectable, that the worst Government in history absolutely trounced them. But to put it as a binary choice between preferring baby-eaters or Chairman Mao's anti-semitic disciple is to miss that people chose SNP, Plaid, Lib, Green etc because the choice was so abject between the other two.

 

[blandy]

1 hour ago, HanoiVillan said:

Why do we have a Brexit 50p, except that the Tories think there will be some advantage in it?

YOu might be right. But then again "they" (Guvmints) do new coins for all kinds of tedious crap - Royal wossnames, general changes to make stuff more forgery resistant...yadda yadda. They're not always (primarily, if at all) for that Government's advantage, perhaps?

[tonyh29]

2 hours ago, HanoiVillan said:

 His uselessness around Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe is one example of something that average voters actually picked up on.

I'll bet the penguin bar on my desk they didn't

 

Edit : too slow , the bet is now a penguin bar wrapper

Edited January 29, 2020 by tonyh29