Chindie Posted January 25 VT Supporter Share Posted January 25 56 minutes ago, bickster said: That reads like you’d just let every person in that wants to come here regardless? There's what moral issue exactly? I really don’t see how processing genuine asylum seekers in France before they cross the channel is the same thing as Rwanda at all I also don’t see the Tory party wanting to tackle the evil of the people smuggling gangs with European law enforcement in joint co-operative action I'm baffled as to why you think it's remotely the same and out of curiosity, what would your solution be? Hey I can attack strawmen as well. It's considered bad form but I can. Offshoring asylum matters is obviously immoral as you are essentially removing yourself from the matter and holding the entire thing at arms length, othering people and placing yourself in a privileged position. There wouldn't be this issue with our dealing with it at our own borders on our territory, but that would require an asylum centre in the south east where it would go down like a wet fart in a lift. What's the sensible centrist dad position? And why is it ok for us to push foreigners away in far off foreign lands? Should everyone do it? I mean if they did I can't see why we'd even need the system, everyone would just punt everyone back to whatever they're fleeing long before they threatened little old Blighty. Actually don't worry, you know, I literally don't care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted January 25 Moderator Share Posted January 25 58 minutes ago, Chindie said: Hey I can attack strawmen as well. It's considered bad form but I can. Offshoring asylum matters is obviously immoral as you are essentially removing yourself from the matter and holding the entire thing at arms length, othering people and placing yourself in a privileged position. There wouldn't be this issue with our dealing with it at our own borders on our territory, but that would require an asylum centre in the south east where it would go down like a wet fart in a lift. What's the sensible centrist dad position? And why is it ok for us to push foreigners away in far off foreign lands? Should everyone do it? I mean if they did I can't see why we'd even need the system, everyone would just punt everyone back to whatever they're fleeing long before they threatened little old Blighty. Actually don't worry, you know, I literally don't care. You say you're against offshoring asylum matters and it’s morally wrong. The only moral issue I can see here is that is morally wrong for us to allow (by our inaction) people to cross the channel dangerously in the hands of people smuggling gangs who prey on these vulnerable people, the vast majority of whom are fleeing persecution. We're an island, there are only two options for the channel crossing situation. Process in France or risk them dying in the channel. If anything NOT offshoring given the circumstances is the morally wrong option, it leads to more needless death. I also don't see how the UK processing in France is removing yourself from the matter, it’s still us processing the applications, just before another risking death stage in their horrendous journey. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted January 25 VT Supporter Share Posted January 25 (edited) Looks like another bonus for UK Citizens from The Tories doing everything in their power to hamper renewable energy. Maybe if they allowed Land Based turbines and didn't unfairly penalise Electricity in order to subsidise gas we might get a better deal. £48bn on Hinckley C is going to help keep those prices high too. The first thing Labour need to do is to sort out the UK Electricity market, allow land based turbines and invest more in infrastructure. https://www.energylivenews.com/2024/01/25/uk-leads-developed-nations-in-soaring-electricity-prices/ UK leads developed nations in soaring electricity prices Quote British households are experiencing a notable escalation in electricity prices, outpacing most developed countries. Quote since 2019, the UK has witnessed a 19% increase in electricity prices within the last year, a trend significantly higher than the global average. In contrast, the US recorded a 5% yearly average rise from 2019 to 2023. Edited January 25 by sidcow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted January 26 Author Moderator Share Posted January 26 13 hours ago, Chindie said: They're being thumped in the pools because their image has become one of incompetence and looting, not because policies are particularly unpopular or their opposition is providing better policy options. Their opposition largely agrees with their policies, in the little we know of them, but they're being enacted by idiots. A cat with a red collar could beat the Tories in the current polls. Unfortunately we know they'll do rather better when the ballot boxes are counted up. On current showing they'll still lose even when the country gives them an embarrassment of votes, of course. Then we get to find out that all we've changed is put in a less blasé higher functioning management team for a couple of years. I’m not sure I share the exact emphasis of the post, but going with it as a starting point, there’s definitely some truth in it. My perception is that an awful lot of people, who don’t follow politics closely kind of have the view that they don’t like some things and sort of meld that into their “stance”. It’s kind of like this: “Stuff doesn’t work properly. Roads, trains, NHS, courts, crime, council services, schools, everything’s gone to shit. My mortgage/ business rates have gone up….” And then there’s what’s in the news. “Rwanda arguing…strikes…rivers full of shit…Storms…culture wars…BBC bias claims”. People don’t like that, but it’s not what they primarily care about. They might think it’s bad, but really, they also think it’s irrelevant, by and large, or not at the top of what needs sorting out to make a difference to their struggles. So it’s factored in that the Tories are to blame and need to go. But I don’t think people have much of an idea about Labour. They don’t think they’re the same, but they only vaguely know anything about why they are different. They are different, but realistically they will at best make things 10% better. Not because that’s the limit of what their ambition is, but because reality. They cannot magic away wars, climate change, brexit downsides, crumbled infrastructure, inequality, broken services and all the rest. It’ll be a massive slog just to start turning the decay around. That’s the Tory legacy. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinker Posted January 26 VT Supporter Share Posted January 26 From the very moment the Tories go and Starmer and Labour start to run a country with some half decent well thought out policies the mood will change in the country. Its the perception of growth and improvements that make a difference to a country. For far to long the tories have been running the country with policies and announcements that chase the latest polls and pander to the right wing media.......all immigration is bad, the EU is out to get one over on us, tax cuts for the rich help the poor, the NHS needs to be privatised, the USA is our best friend......it has been the most divisive, destructive government we have had and that's quite an achievement. The problem is voters don't want to believe they have all been conned by these idiots, sadly they have and in huge numbers. The Conservatives last hope to avoid an election collapse is to make the election a single issue one and illegal immigration could be that issue, Labour need to tred carefully and not get dragged into it, their doing a good job of that at the moment but you can expect a DM led assault on that very soon, probably a month before the election. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 13 minutes ago, tinker said: The Conservatives last hope to avoid an election collapse is to make the election a single issue one and illegal immigration could be that issue, Labour need to tred carefully and not get dragged into it, their doing a good job of that at the moment but you can expect a DM led assault on that very soon, probably a month before the election. It’s a real struggle for even those who backed Brexit to take them seriously. They’re a busted flush. Whatever they say is treated with huge amounts of skepticism. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 I’d love to ask Rishi Sunak why stopping the boats is the highest priority. Highest taxes in history, child poverty, NHS waiting lists, pot holes, Brexit red tape, environmental climate change, shit in the rivers, etc etc With total immigration over a million a year, why is the circa 29,000 who arrive on a small boat getting so much of the governments focus and how will stopping them benefit the masses in the UK population (to justify it being the government priority)? Has anyone squarely asked him that? Maybe they’re waiting for one of the TV debates to put him on the spot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted January 26 VT Supporter Share Posted January 26 21 minutes ago, Genie said: I’d love to ask Rishi Sunak why stopping the boats is the highest priority. Highest taxes in history, child poverty, NHS waiting lists, pot holes, Brexit red tape, environmental climate change, shit in the rivers, etc etc With total immigration over a million a year, why is the circa 29,000 who arrive on a small boat getting so much of the governments focus and how will stopping them benefit the masses in the UK population (to justify it being the government priority)? Has anyone squarely asked him that? Maybe they’re waiting for one of the TV debates to put him on the spot. He'll just say it's to protect people's lives as the crossing is dangerous. Obviously it is, but their solution won't stop that. If challenged on that he will just say it is the best option and repeat that over if anyone tries to put forward a different option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 11 minutes ago, sidcow said: He'll just say it's to protect people's lives as the crossing is dangerous. Obviously it is, but their solution won't stop that. If challenged on that he will just say it is the best option and repeat that over if anyone tries to put forward a different option. Even if we take the stance that all their actions work perfectly, and the channel crossings drop to zero… how does that impact the big issues which are facing the people of the UK? To be their top priority you would assume that the impact would be massive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desensitized43 Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 58 minutes ago, Genie said: I’d love to ask Rishi Sunak why stopping the boats is the highest priority. Highest taxes in history, child poverty, NHS waiting lists, pot holes, Brexit red tape, environmental climate change, shit in the rivers, etc etc With total immigration over a million a year, why is the circa 29,000 who arrive on a small boat getting so much of the governments focus and how will stopping them benefit the masses in the UK population (to justify it being the government priority)? Has anyone squarely asked him that? Maybe they’re waiting for one of the TV debates to put him on the spot. Regardless of how you feel about immigration it was a **** horrific bit of politics to use the word "stop". That's surely impossible, short of putting gun boats in the channel and machine gunning a load of unarmed people in inflatables. It does kind of give the game away though. The crowd they're pandering to don't want to reduce the numbers, they don't want to control the numbers, they just want no more brown folk coming in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 26 minutes ago, Genie said: To be their top priority you would assume that the impact would be massive. I think you're almost there with this but are coming at it from the wrong angle, assuming good intent from a government for whom sensible running the country is a priority. Them making it a key priority, chucking ridiculous, headline-grabbing policies at it keeps it front and centre in people's mind, and helps fuel their war on wokeness and distract people from all the other stuff that's actually in their control that they're royally **** up. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 1 minute ago, Davkaus said: I think you're almost there with this but are coming at it from the wrong angle, assuming good intent from a government for whom sensible running the country is a priority. Them making it a key priority, chucking ridiculous, headline-grabbing policies at it keeps it front and centre in people's mind, and helps fuel their war on wokeness and distract people from all the other stuff that's actually in their control that they're royally **** up. I just want someone to list the big issues of the day to him, then ask him how the governments top priority of stopping the boats resolves them. I don’t recall anyone doing that yet. It would show him, the government up for what they are. ”people can’t buy food or pay their energy bills because taxes are higher than ever. Schools are falling down with crumbling concrete. NHS waiting lists are longer than ever on record. Trains are not running. Businesses continue to close because of the poor Brexit deal. Doctors and nurses are not working. The rivers are full of raw sewerage. Millions are pounds are paid every day in compensation to drivers because their cars have been damaged by potholes, yet the priority of you and your government is to stop boats crossing the channel which contribute about 2% to the annual immigration number. Why are you continuing to focus so much resource on something with such little impact on the population where there are far more significant challenges facing everybody, every day?” mic drop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 5 minutes ago, Genie said: I just want someone to list the big issues of the day to him, then ask him how the governments top priority of stopping the boats resolves them. I don’t recall anyone doing that yet. It would show him, the government up for what they are. ”people can’t buy food or pay their energy bills because taxes are higher than ever. Schools are falling down with crumbling concrete. NHS waiting lists are longer than ever on record. Trains are not running. Businesses continue to close because of the poor Brexit deal. Doctors and nurses are not working. The rivers are full of raw sewerage. Millions are pounds are paid every day in compensation to drivers because their cars have been damaged by potholes, yet the priority of you and your government is to stop boats crossing the channel which contribute about 2% to the annual immigration number. Why are you continuing to focus so much resource on something with such little impact on the population where there are far more significant challenges facing everybody, every day?” mic drop. For a lot of people they consider those issues have come about as a consequence of too many people competing for too few resources in the U.K. They believe none of those things can be resolved until the primary cause (in their minds) is dealt with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 9 minutes ago, LondonLax said: For a lot of people they consider those issues have come about as a consequence of too many people competing for too few resources in the U.K. They believe none of those things can be resolved until the primary cause (in their minds) is dealt with. Yeah, 100% agree. This is why I want it out to Sunak to see how he answers. Will he go full boris johnson and lie through his teeth? He can’t possibly say stopping the boats unlocks the NHS or lower taxes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinker Posted January 26 VT Supporter Share Posted January 26 31 minutes ago, Genie said: Yeah, 100% agree. This is why I want it out to Sunak to see how he answers. Will he go full boris johnson and lie through his teeth? He can’t possibly say stopping the boats unlocks the NHS or lower taxes. He will ignore the facts and concentrate on the headline, that's what they have done all the way through, Brexit being the biggest load of lies ever. The press will jump on his headline and destroy Labour and the facts to get the tories over the line. Labour don't need to play his game, they need to do the opposite of what the tories want, keep out of the headlines on immigration, get in power and then tackle the problem and show us all how it should be done in an honest and transparent way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted January 26 Moderator Share Posted January 26 1 hour ago, Davkaus said: I think you're almost there with this but are coming at it from the wrong angle, assuming good intent from a government for whom sensible running the country is a priority. Them making it a key priority, chucking ridiculous, headline-grabbing policies at it keeps it front and centre in people's mind, and helps fuel their war on wokeness and distract people from all the other stuff that's actually in their control that they're royally **** up. Thats all true but it’s only part of it. It’s also part of the internal civil war, all the former Brexit uber right wing infighting factions of the Tory Party are demanding this action and that is also forcing Sunak to keep it front and centre. The Throbbers don’t really care about the people in the boats, for them it’s all about forcing the UK to do something that will be challenged by “foreign woke judicial systems” so they can have the confrontation and attempt to further distance the UK from International Law. Allied to that, the bit you’re talking about is the only place the party can regain any votes from at this stage. The Remain / Tory switchers which I reckon is about 6% of the population. That’s the small percentage of the country that this is aimed at. It’s also why I see the Tory Party lurching further rightward after their inevitable destruction at the ballot box, whenever that is. They have no real off ramp to becoming less throbby any more. They’ve alienated the vast majority of people of working age. In five years that demographic will be worse and they'll be stuck in a battle both internally and externally over the throbber vote, which in itself is likely to be diminishing due to natural demographics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marka Ragnos Posted January 27 VT Supporter Share Posted January 27 What’s all this talk about Throbbers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted January 27 Moderator Share Posted January 27 7 minutes ago, Marka Ragnos said: What’s all this talk about Throbbers? A VT alternative to the more well known Gammon. I presume the origin is the throbbing veins at the side of their foreheads when they get angry and rant. In easier to understand terms, dimwitted, nationalistic, Brexit loving, simpletons. The Tory Party is full of them (as is Reform) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted January 27 Moderator Share Posted January 27 More The Thick Of It moments… Quote Four Rwandans were granted refugee status in the UK over “well-founded” fears of persecution at the same time as the government was arguing in court and parliament that the east African country was a safe place to send asylum seekers. An investigation by the Observer and the campaign group Led by Donkeys reveals for the first time details of Home Office decisions on Rwandans who have been given asylum in the past four months, claiming they were at risk from the regime. Grauniad 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 It must be decades since we had an actual "McCarthyism was good and right, it was all the fault of the lefty infiltrators" take. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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