The Chairman Mao resembling, Monarchy hating, threat to Britain, Labour Party thread

[Paul33]

3 hours ago, Davkaus said:

That well known leftie extremist and russian hat wearer...Keir Starmer? Good lord, I hope this is satire.

You seriously think he runs the party ? You don't think that Momentum and Corbyn's Marxists and the big Unions are still firmly holding the steering wheel ? Starmer is allowed to operate the way he does but he is dangling from many strings and he knows that which is why he picks his arguments very carefully !

 

[bannedfromHandV]

5 minutes ago, Paul33 said:

You seriously think he runs the party ? You don't think that Momentum and Corbyn's Marxists and the big Unions are still firmly holding the steering wheel ? Starmer is allowed to operate the way he does but he is dangling from many strings and he knows that which is why he picks his arguments very carefully !

 

Okay cool, let’s all just vote Tory again then cos it’s going swimmingly well.

Far better off with Boris and his chums lining their pockets whilst destroying the NHS, our right to protest and any credibility we might have had in the international community.

Way better than those pesky trade unions, with their wanting to ensure workers are treated fairly and appropriately and all that outdated nonsense.

[MessiWillSignForVilla]

8 minutes ago, Paul33 said:

You seriously think he runs the party ? You don't think that Momentum and Corbyn's Marxists and the big Unions are still firmly holding the steering wheel ? Starmer is allowed to operate the way he does but he is dangling from many strings and he knows that which is why he picks his arguments very carefully !

 

This is Poe's Law in action, right?

[Paul33]

2 hours ago, bobzy said:

So many questions, and hopefully you'll stick around to discuss rather than throwing this nonsense out there and disappearing   BUT... to start;

a]  If you're actively acknowledging that the current government are destroying the country (i.e: "...who will finish the job"), why wouldn't you want a change?  They're destroying the country!
b]  Who exactly do you class as the "lunatic leftie extremists"?
c]  I'm still unsure which the lesser of two evils is

I don't think you'll respond because "your type" tend not to, but it would be great if you did.

(a) I was picking up on earlier accusations and suggesting that if people think the Tories are screwing up then why vote them out in order to bring in a party that is a complete mess on top of having a nightmare CV in past government ?
(b) Momentum primarily ...... that group that were banned by Labour before Corbyn allowed them in return for their vote
(c) The lesser is the current government who have made some mistakes but have also achieved some good results. I see both and my view of them is therefore balanced. I personally have greater concern for the vaccination programme and the economy than I do a few people having a beer ..... if indeed that is what they did !
PS: I'm no blue Tory and have voted Labour as often as Tory and will always go with the right fit for what I want to see happen in this country ...... it will take some time and some significant change before I could ever see Labour as an option again but I hope they get there as a one-party country is never good whatever party you support.
 

[Davkaus]

9 minutes ago, Paul33 said:

You seriously think he runs the party ? You don't think that Momentum and Corbyn's Marxists and the big Unions are still firmly holding the steering wheel ? Starmer is allowed to operate the way he does but he is dangling from many strings and he knows that which is why he picks his arguments very carefully !

 

Oh it was satire. I wasn't sure with the previous post

[bickster]

8 minutes ago, Paul33 said:

(b) Momentum primarily ...... that group that were banned by Labour before Corbyn allowed them in return for their vote

As much as I'm no fan of Corbyn, this is utter nonsense

Momentum was formed inside the Labour Party by Jon Lansman, Laura Parker and others. They were all members of the Labour Party at the time. It was formed after Corbyn became leader

They couldn't have been banned before by Labour because they didn't exist. Unlike a lot of left "groupings" they didn't form from the ashes of a previous group. They simply didn't exist prior to their formation.

13 minutes ago, Paul33 said:

to bring in a party that is a complete mess on top of having a nightmare CV in past government ?

That really isn't true either, Labour's CV in government is far far better than the Tories. Lower taxes under Labour (and that analysis goes back decades, the Tory Party being the Party of low taxation is a complete and utter myth), relative economic prosperity. Sure it had its faults, every government does but we were pretty much all better off under the last Labour administration than we are now

16 minutes ago, Paul33 said:

(c) The lesser is the current government who have made some mistakes but have also achieved some good results. I see both and my view of them is therefore balanced.

Utter nonsense, in all my years I've never lived under a more duplicitous, corrupt, incompetent government as this

[Paul33]

32 minutes ago, bickster said:

Momentum was formed inside the Labour Party by Jon Lansman, Laura Parker and others. They were all members of the Labour Party at the time. It was formed after Corbyn became leader

They couldn't have been banned before by Labour because they didn't exist. Unlike a lot of left "groupings" they didn't form from the ashes of a previous group. They simply didn't exist prior to their formation.

I bow to your greater and better knowledge ..... I always believed they were formed from Militant Tendency who Labour kicked out at some point.

The rest of it I just don't agree with but hey, that is politics and in particular that is party politics. Debates like those in this thread will never conclude because those that vote through allegiance ("always voted xxxx and will never vote yyyy") will never change their allegiance no matter what happens ..... its like somebody saying Blues are better (I know - very unlikely !) so surely you'd switch to them but you don't because you're allegiance prevents you doing so.

I'm not party loyal and try to stand back and call the party that appears to be best in terms of delivering what I want to see but that leaves me likely to be drowned out by party loyal who don't want to discuss but just want to fire bullets at the party they have always hated !

For those reasons and only those reasons, I'm walking away from this endless thread and will focus instead on the Liverpool (A) thread !!! #UTV #VTID

Edited December 8, 2021 by Paul33

[bickster]

37 minutes ago, Paul33 said:

I always believed they were formed from Militant Tendency who Labour kicked out at some point.

Not at all, the rump of Miltant that rejoined the Labour Party we called Socialist Appeal. They were a very small minor irritant in the Labour Party with very little influence and are now proscibed and the Party is expelling them.

 

37 minutes ago, Paul33 said:

The rest of it I just don't agree with but hey, that is politics and in particular that is party politics.

Some of the rest of it is fact. Labour is historically the Party of low taxation. It's the Tories that put taxes up far more than Labour ever did. Look it up

 

37 minutes ago, Paul33 said:

For those reasons and only those reasons, I'm walking away from this endless thread

Nah that really isn't the reason

[bobzy]

1 hour ago, Paul33 said:

(a) I was picking up on earlier accusations and suggesting that if people think the Tories are screwing up then why vote them out in order to bring in a party that is a complete mess on top of having a nightmare CV in past government ?
(b) Momentum primarily ...... that group that were banned by Labour before Corbyn allowed them in return for their vote
(c) The lesser is the current government who have made some mistakes but have also achieved some good results. I see both and my view of them is therefore balanced. I personally have greater concern for the vaccination programme and the economy than I do a few people having a beer ..... if indeed that is what they did !
PS: I'm no blue Tory and have voted Labour as often as Tory and will always go with the right fit for what I want to see happen in this country ...... it will take some time and some significant change before I could ever see Labour as an option again but I hope they get there as a one-party country is never good whatever party you support.
 

Thank you for replying.

I think your first part is basically untrue, and certainly no worse than what’s going on now. What are the good results that you’ve seen?! It’s been a complete shitshow for ages. I’m absolutely happy to call out things that the government do well but it’s really a struggle under Johnson. Please do let me know.

I must admit, I have no idea about Momentum but they don’t seem at all relevant anymore (certainly from a media standpoint) so seems a weird call to attach “lunatic leftie extremists” to a whole party who no longer appear to have that element in them - even more so coming from someone who apparently doesn’t have a party allegiance.

Given that last bit, I’m actually pretty worried about what it would take for you to not vote for this government. They’re an absolute shambles, the element you didn’t like about Labour has gone… but this is still the one for you?

[HanoiVillan]

1 hour ago, Paul33 said:

You seriously think he runs the party ? You don't think that Momentum and Corbyn's Marxists and the big Unions are still firmly holding the steering wheel ? Starmer is allowed to operate the way he does but he is dangling from many strings and he knows that which is why he picks his arguments very carefully !

 

I mean lol and I frankly would prefer it in a number of ways if that were actually true but sadly you are rather misinformed about the Labour Party. 

[markavfc40]

15 minutes ago, bickster said:

36 minutes ago, Paul33 said:

For those reasons and only those reasons, I'm walking away from this endless thread

Nah that really isn't the reason

In fairness he lasted about two posts longer than I thought he would.

I totally get why a lot of people wouldn't want to vote Labour or Lib Dem or SNP etc. What I will never, ever get my head around is how anyone goes into a polling booth and sticks an X next to the Tory party, especially one being led by Boris Johnson, and endorses them. Trying to justify that choice by saying well at least it is not Labour is a huge cop out and they are living in la la land if they think that justifies them lumbering us with these evil, self serving bastards.

Edited December 8, 2021 by markavfc40

[Paul33]

8 minutes ago, markavfc40 said:

In fairness he lasted about two posts longer than I thought he would.

I totally get why a lot of people wouldn't want to vote Labour or Lib Dem or SNP etc. What I will never, ever get my head around is how anyone goes into a polling booth and sticks an X next to the Tory party, especially one being led by Boris Johnson, and endorses them. 

So you'd simply not vote ? Be honest here, did you actually vote for and endorse Corbyn ?

[Paul33]

27 minutes ago, bickster said:

Some of the rest of it is fact. Labour is historically the Party of low taxation. It's the Tories that put taxes up far more than Labour ever did. Look it up

Assume that you also noted that Labour has historically been the party of unemployment with an increase in unemployment under every Labour government since the war ?

Should you not mention that too in fairness ?

Edited December 8, 2021 by Paul33

[markavfc40]

27 minutes ago, Paul33 said:

So you'd simply not vote ? Be honest here, did you actually vote for and endorse Corbyn ?

If I felt that I would step into the booth and possibly get the urge to vote for a Tory party under Boris Johnson then I would avoid the voting booth like the plague.

I have zero problem saying that I voted Labour at the last election. I live in a seat where my vote actually counts so it really mattered. 

A Labour government under Corbyn wasn't my ideal. Far from it. I cast my vote with others more in mind than my current self though or with my potential future self in mind. I want a better funded NHS that doesn't go deeper and deeper into private ownership, I want a better welfare safety net, I want disabled people really well cared for, I want better adult social care, I want better funded public services, I want social housing, I want people who have fallen on hard times to be given a leg up. Oh and to do all the above I'll happily pay a few quid more a week in taxes and I am not rich by any stretch. One last thing I want a government that take responsibility and doesn't encourage its people to blame Johnny Foreigner, The EU, the disabled, those who have fallen on hard times or past Governments for any woes.

We were never going to get any of that under the Tories in fact in pretty much every case we knew we were getting the opposite. We wouldn't have got it all under Labour either but they'd at least have tried with most. I would love to hear what you and others voted for, not what you voted against, when you voted for the Tories. 

Edited December 8, 2021 by markavfc40

[bickster]

35 minutes ago, Paul33 said:

Assume that you also noted that Labour has historically been the party of unemployment with an increase in unemployment under every Labour government since the war ?

Should you not mention that too in fairness ?

No because it's simplistic twaddle that is only true under the last Labour Government because of a global recession at the end of their tenure, In fact for much of their term in office, unemployment remained a steady 5% (esp between 1997 - 2005) 5% is the generally accepted definition of full emplyment

[Paul33]

9 minutes ago, markavfc40 said:

I would love to hear what you and others voted for, not what you voted against, when you voted for the Tories. 

Shouldn't that question be "I would love to hear why the majority of voters voted for the Tories." and surely you must have an idea as to the answer ?

I liked certain elements offered by each of the parties so it was a case of who got most ticks. Labour scared me and that in its own right was enough for me to vote against them. Their attitude towards privatisation, Brexit, mortgages were enough for me to panic over and there was plenty more. I also didn't like the "direct action" mantra spouted by the left wing (eg Militant) which resulted in long standing party representatives being ousted and saw this at close quarters in my area.

I was also pro Brexit and I couldn't make my mind up what Labour's view was but it seemed they were prepared to move against the democratic vote whereas the Tories were clear they were going for it. 

At the end of the day, when you have or had a two party choice then voting A because B scares the shite out of you is a more than reasonable basis on which to choose.

[Paul33]

4 minutes ago, bickster said:

No because it's simplistic twaddle that is only true under the last Labour Government because of a global recession at the end of their tenure, In fact for much of their term in office, unemployment remained a steady 5% (esp between 1997 - 2005) 5% is the generally accepted definition of full emplyment

Simplistic Twaddle is probably what you would like to believe but you know as well as I do that it is true and has been verified many times with (if I recall) 1920s being the last time Labour presided over a fall in unemployment.

[ml1dch]

8 minutes ago, Paul33 said:

Shouldn't that question be "I would love to hear why the majority of voters voted for the Tories." and surely you must have an idea as to the answer ?

Is the answer "they didn't"?

[bickster]

Just now, Paul33 said:

Simplistic Twaddle is probably what you would like to believe but you know as well as I do that it is true and has been verified many times with (if I recall) 1920s being the last time Labour presided over a fall in unemployment.

I really don't think a Labour government of a century ago is very relevant to today do you. In fact there really is only 1 period of Labour Government that is of relevance to the modern world and thats 1997 - 2010

[Paul33]

23 minutes ago, markavfc40 said:

I want a better funded NHS that doesn't go deeper and deeper into private ownership .......

So what is your thinking on the Labour driven private finance initiatives that have crippled many of our hospitals whose single biggest debt is the repayment of these hideous "loans" that Labour used to build hospitals. The Tories are chucking stupid money at the NHS (a lot more than Labour) but as even the NHS openly admit, it isn't money that is the problem, its the massive growth in demand for services that is the problem. Chasing that demand with money is beyond any party's capability unless taxes are raised significantly ...... which I favour strongly.

If you want to understand the reason the NHS struggles beyond Daily Mirror headlines, look at that demand data that is out there because the answer is to reduce that demand. The NHS is being misused and that is the problem ..... we are screwing it up !